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Getting ready for the long haul
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oprn
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:47 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

Ya well... FM has been obsolete for over 20 years now. Thee next was PCM and PPM, all that is obsolete now too and it's all about 27M Hz frequency hopping stuff. 27M Hz is long gone, so is 72M Hz with all the new channels you were talking about and rumors now are that the present frequency band is dated and the next is we will be required to go on to the Amateur Radio Operator's frequencies. Cell phone tower operators are pushing us out. I have a half a shopping cart full of obsolete radio gear.

Now with the popularity of electric planes guys at the club field spend all their time charging batteries, binding receivers and programming radios. It's rare to see more that one or two planes actually in the air... even then flying skills take back seat to flight modes and pre-programmed maneuvers.


So - if I seem a little reluctant to "modernize" my air cooled VW hobby, that is why. I have had a belly full already!

Give me simple and let me drive it!
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clonebug
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

Here's what a modern VW will get you......

21.1 lbs boost by 3641 rpm....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


26.5 lbs. boost by 3846 rpm....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Look at the logs...there is some great info there......besides boost and rpm.
Click on the pics for a better and clearer view.

It makes for excellent mid range torque and full boost for almost 2000 rpm which equals no lag between shifts.

It translates to 226 crank hp at less than 5000 rpm.

It makes me smile..........and it's worth it.......
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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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oprn
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

I admire what you have been able to do with that engine. It's pretty impressive. The logs and fuel maps mean little to me as I have not studied up on fuel injection to understand what is going on there. I am an old guy with a tired brain so not sure if I will get into that sort of thing. My crank trigger/Megajolt is giving me some grief right now and is challenge enough at the present. I put the unit in a weather proof container to keep the rain off it and what has happened I don't know but it seems to have crapped the bed now.

Have you played with adding a knock sensor to yours? That is where I want to go next in my efforts to maximize fuel economy.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
I admire what you have been able to do with that engine. It's pretty impressive. The logs and fuel maps mean little to me as I have not studied up on fuel injection to understand what is going on there. I am an old guy with a tired brain so not sure if I will get into that sort of thing. My crank trigger/Megajolt is giving me some grief right now and is challenge enough at the present. I put the unit in a weather proof container to keep the rain off it and what has happened I don't know but it seems to have crapped the bed now.

Have you played with adding a knock sensor to yours? That is where I want to go next in my efforts to maximize fuel economy.


I actually have a knock sensor sitting in my stash of parts.......
I don't think a knock sensor is something I need nor does a N/A air cooled engine.
Running on the ragged edge is not worth it. I prefer to run a little on the conservative side therefore I just use my ECU to lower timing a bit if and when the intake air gets a little higher than normal. That is usually what will give you detonation.
I'm not familiar with Megajolt but it might have an option to lower timing based on IAT which the Megasquirt ECU will do.
IAT seems to have a larger effect on timing than boost does. That is why it is so critical to keep your intake temps down.
As I've said before...I've found 130* F. to be a noticeable limit for detonation issues whether it's caused by boost or by high ambient temperatures.
Travelling thru the Deserts of California at 106* F will give cruise IAT's pushing that limit especially if a couple lbs. of boost is needed to climb a grade or if the asphalt road is heating things up.

Working out my tune while driving has been very close to optimal and it showed when testing on a dyno. Adding the little bit of timing to gain a small amount of torque in midrange boost wasn't enough to justify paying for the dyno time and in actuality it was only optimal on the dyno at the moment and air temperature range.
Put it in the California desert heat and you would need to lower timing to stave off detonation. Using a knock sensor to continuously control timing in those situations would be asking for trouble I feel.
The performance difference is not noticeable enough to worry about unless you are trying to win a race.

For a Daily driver packing the "Significant Other" and some accessories for a long weekend or a 2-3 week vacation it isn't needed.
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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


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oprn
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

What you are saying is likely true... for someone chasing HP. I on the other hand have enough HP for all practical purposes for my kind of driving. I am chasing MPG at light cruise. This is because we take 9 - 11 hour drives through country with limited access to refueling and this old Beetle tank is pretty small for that kind of range. I have no fear of detonation at 1/4 throttle or less. That is where we cruise. As soon as the intake pressure increases from cruise values much (rise in road inclination or pull out to pass) the Megajolt drops the extra timing off just like yours does when it sees boost.

I think I would have to have some very extreme timing advance to see detonation under those conditions. I think it would take 50+ degrees to see that. The purpose of a knock sensor is to see where that limit is (I can't rely on 60+ year old ears full of 60 mph wind noise) and to be able to advance the timing until I reach a point where it stops being a benefit to fuel economy. It may be at the same point or it may not. All I know at this time is that no one can tell me that I have asked.

This is no different than your quest to see how much power you can squeeze out of a stock 1600 cc engine. Everyone including myself told you it would not work and you proved us all wrong. I see no reason a 1400 pound car should be getting 21 mpg. At this point I am up to 29.8 mpg but the goal is to match or better the 34 mpg my bone stock '71 SB used to get.

As for a knock sensor being of no value on an N/A engine... tell that one to every auto manufacturer in the market today!
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
What you are saying is likely true... for someone chasing HP. I on the other hand have enough HP for all practical purposes for my kind of driving. I am chasing MPG at light cruise. This is because we take 9 - 11 hour drives through country with limited access to refueling and this old Beetle tank is pretty small for that kind of range. I have no fear of detonation at 1/4 throttle or less. That is where we cruise. As soon as the intake pressure increases from cruise values much (rise in road inclination or pull out to pass) the Megajolt drops the extra timing off just like yours does when it sees boost.

I think I would have to have some very extreme timing advance to see detonation under those conditions. I think it would take 50+ degrees to see that. The purpose of a knock sensor is to see where that limit is (I can't rely on 60+ year old ears full of 60 mph wind noise) and to be able to advance the timing until I reach a point where it stops being a benefit to fuel economy. It may be at the same point or it may not. All I know at this time is that no one can tell me that I have asked.

This is no different than your quest to see how much power you can squeeze out of a stock 1600 cc engine. Everyone including myself told you it would not work and you proved us all wrong. I see no reason a 1400 pound car should be getting 21 mpg. At this point I am up to 29.8 mpg but the goal is to match or better the 34 mpg my bone stock '71 SB used to get.

As for a knock sensor being of no value on an N/A engine... tell that one to every auto manufacturer in the market today!


You miss quoted me.....

N/A air cooled engine.

I've been EFI since 2013....I think I have tried every combination of AFR and ignition map and while some might be better in one area than the other it doesn't make that much difference in mileage.
I run 15.1-15.5:1 AFR at cruise and I get 22-25 mpg around home on local roads depending on how long a drive we take.
Short drives are 22 mpg and longer drives are 25 mpg.
The best I've done is 30 mpg going East of the mountains and that is when we maintain approximately 60 mph and hold it there for longer periods of time. Any faster and the windshield creates more drag along with the open cockpit.
I have fuel useage and miles traveled per tank since 2016. My Wife rolls her eyes every time I keep track of it but I finally have her putting the gallons and miles into my phone notes on our trips. Why I do it I don't know but mileage has been pretty consistent in those years.
In my opinion you would be better off putting some kind of luggage rack on your buggy and carrying a few gallons of fuel with you. You would have better peace of mind and can travel a lot farther than any mileage gain you would get by messing with ignition advance or AFR.
I just checked mileage on the 1100 miles on our Big Bear trip this summer and mileage ranged from 20.5 to 28.5 mpg.
That involved elevations from almost sea level to 8000 ft. I can't really complain about that.

Trying to gauge improvements in fuel mileage changing ignition advance and AFR would be a time consuming endeavor since you would have to do it on a closed course in order to log the improvements.
There are some that say you can run 16-17:1 with high advance but it makes for a soggy throttle pedal I feel. I like it crisp and responsive and the couple mpg I lose isn't worth worrying about. Maybe if you live in the flat lands and can hold a steady pedal it would work but in my local there is very little flat land if you want to travel out of the area.

I"ll stick with my 22-28 mpg and 200 hp thank you very much....... Wink Cool
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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


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oprn
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:58 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

First off I am not buying the air cooled vs water cooled argument for fuel economy just like you didn't believe it for boost limits. There is no basis to support that. My Beetle got 34 mpg and my sister's Square back did 40 mpg both in factory form.

There are two things in my mind that are limiting factors for me. One as you mentioned is the higher drag of the buggy and for me the second is the larger bore size and combustion chamber shape of the type 4 engine. A smaller bore and a tighter combustion chamber would be better.

You pursued HP until you matched HP/displacement of modern technology but gave up on the economy side part way there. I gave up easily on the HP race but want to take the economy to it's limits. To each his own goals.

Interesting that we are both running the same AFR and getting close to the same mileage with very different engine configurations. Yes the lean burn/early timing cruise feels a bit soggy but... only until you plant it and you have your snappy engine feel back instantly.

Yes we live in the flat lands for sure. Going either north, south or east from here 5 - 8 hours there is only about 200 feet change in altitude and that is through the river valleys. To the west 9 - 11 hours the first 5 hours is flat until we reach the Rockies. And yes we carry jerry cans presently.

I would drop this air cooled engine in a heart beat in favour of a VW ALH engine if I could do it without the car looking like a rolling junk yard. It would give me 2.5 times the economy with virtually the same power.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

I drove the crap out of a 69 Squareback automatic with stock FI. It got a consistent 30 mpg on long trips. It was gutless as can be but back then I was only interested in cheap transportation and nothing else.
My mileage isn't that far off that type of mileage so I'm happy. I chalk it up to a flat windshield and the turbulence behind it . It's not a very aerodynamic vehicle.

Most Strokers that have the same hp as I do get less than optimum mileage and you can read on the Performance forum where some get less than 15 mpg and they think it is tuned great.

A Buggy is a brick......In my long distance travels I have found if I draft a truck or car my pedal pressure drops a significant amount. The vehicle ahead breaking the wind makes a lot of difference on the hp needs to cruise at 65-70 mph.
The only problem is the wind buffeting by doing that is kind of annoying.

If I was ambitious I could run a log and check how much difference there is on the TPS reading but in the end it's not that big a deal. I'll bet it is at least 10% if not more and with my ignition map I could probably dial in more advance but driveablility and crispness is more important than a couple mpg.
Raising advance above the 38 degrees I already run would make my 3D view of the ignition map look ugly.
Light cruise is a very small portion of the map. Setting up the transitions would be fun since my engine goes into boost so quickly.
I tried high advance and blending it into the 130-150 kpa lines and it killed my low range boost ability. That also kills the low to mid range torque and it wouldn't build full boost until 4000 rpm.
Lowering the advance before boost gave me 21.0 lbs at 3700 rpm which translates to a completely different torque range than a slow ramp to 18 lbs. at 4000 rpm.
It really has to be felt to be appreciated.

With all the testing I have done on timing I can't believe an 009 or other distributor could actually be called a good fit for an engine.

I had EGT's through the roof running 30-32 degrees timing at cruise...no matter what AFR I tried.


In the end if we want mileage we take my Wife's 2.0L VW CC and get 34 plus mpg with heated seats and/or A/C at 70-75 mph.
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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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oprn
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

15mpg for a 4 cylinder is beyond pathetic! My '83 944 with a 2.5L gets 35 mpg, I had a '73 Buick full sized, fully loaded with a 455 cui engine that got 21 mpg on a long trip. Dad's VW bay window would get 18 mpg with a full load of us kids at 65 mph. The wife's VW Lupo with the automatic gets 43 mpg. My '92 Chevy truck got 20 mpg, my 1 ton Dodge diesel got 16.7 mpg pulling a loaded 24 foot cargo trailer through the mountains. Where do they get off at calling 15 mpg tuned?

There must be raw gas dripping out of the exhaust! When my Buggy was in the low 20 mpg range I could smell raw gas when I was following it on the highway.

Wow! Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

Buggy season is done for the year.....well it was done by the middle of October since it was one of the wettest falls we have had on record.

We put 4100 plus miles on it for the year and it ran great except for the little transmission issue we had. That is now behind us and there is next season to look forward to.
Since I like to do a little upgrade to the buggy every winter I found something to do for Winter 2021......
Picked up a new and more capable ECU. It's a MS3PRO-EVO along with one of the coolest Power Management Units I've seen. It's the PMU-!6 from Ecumaster and I will have my work cut out for me figuring out how to make it all tick......should be fun and keep me out of trouble.
My goal is to clean up my wiring a whole bunch since it uses Can-bus to communicate.
It will probably take a few revisions to get it nicer looking but I don't mind. I'll rewire as I learn better ways to connect things.

Hope this isn't considered off topic........

ECU
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


PMU16

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I hope to clean this mess up a bit.....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


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oprn
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

This mean you are abandoning the Megasquirt?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
This mean you are abandoning the Megasquirt?


It’s still Megasquirt..... hence the MS3Pro.
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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

Ah! An updated version then.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Ah! An updated version then.


Ecu's seem to follow me home like turbos do......

This is my 4th Megasquirt.......the third one didn't even get installed before I upgraded to #4. It's already been sold.
I sold my first one after I upgraded to #2.
MS ECU units hold their value pretty good. Once I upgrade I usually sell the prior one to recoup the money I had in them and put it toward the upgraded ECU.

I seem to collect turbos too......I think I have at least 6 or 7 of them in the garage..... Rolling Eyes

I've sold a couple of the extra ones of them too.

I usually hoard stuff so it kind of amazes me that i ever let anything go..... Embarassed
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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

! have a similar problem with model airplane engines. Look what followed me home dear, can I keep it?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Trouble is I very seldom sell any...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

That is a very cool little flat twin there! Looks like small model airplane engines have changed a little bit from what I played with as a kid.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:21 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

I feel the same way now getting back into air cooled VW after a 30 year absence. So many parts and combinations of sizes have become available in that time. A lot of these engines bare little resemblance to the German ones I worked on, drove and enjoyed.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

Started on my Winter upgrades for 2021.....it's a little cool so need some heat.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm going to rewire the buggy up front with the new MS3Pro-Evo and the EcuMaster PMU-16.
Here is a before pic.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cleaning house........

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Some of my wiring tools....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


We have power on the PMU. I've added Main power, Ground, Switched power, Can L, Can H, and fuel pump.
I have to hook up the Can L and Can H wires in order to communicate with the laptop. I'll be doing that today. I can then start programming the inputs and outputs and test them.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

I test mounted the ECU and PMU.......This is around revision 4.0. I've drilled so many holes in the first mounting board it's ridiculous. This is the second board I'm using as a template. I'm using a piece of Plexiglass with protective covering still on it for a temp mount until I get the final position set. It was free and aluminum is outrageous if bought from a small store.
Once I figure out exactly where and how I want it mounted I will cut a piece of aluminum and drill the holes off the plexiglass pattern so it will look half decent.

I want to keep my Bazooka stereo speaker and my 800 watt Inverter that I have so the real estate disappears pretty fast.

This is the latest photo I have but it's actually been moved up another inch and might even go up one more.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'll be incorporating some new stuff into my dash. One is an eight position Can-Bus Keyboard that will replace all my switches on the dash which will control most everything along with start/stop features. It will do everything with just 4 wires. It will replace at least 16-20 wires and will clean up my install.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have one other addition I'm going to go look at and hold in my hands tomorrow. I will probably have to have it and take it home with me. That will move me into a whole new dash look......

It's all the little things that take time.....good thing I have till April to get it all done.......that's why it's called a Winter Upgrade..... Rolling Eyes Wink Cool
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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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clonebug
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Joined: January 29, 2005
Posts: 4026
Location: NW Washington
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:14 am    Post subject: Re: Getting ready for the long haul Reply with quote

Picked up a couple new additions to the upgrade.

A Can-Bus Keyboard and a Can-Bus 3.2 inch display screen. The screen also has a few analog inputs for displaying sensors.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have the keyboard mounted and a temporary mount made for the display.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I'm working on the wiring at this time but the weather has gotten cold again with new snow.
_________________
vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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