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Lind
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000
Posts: 9915
Location: idaho
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 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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| robin.richard wrote: |
Thanks to all.
I borrowed an induction timing light from a friend today and checked timing during lunch. With the bus engine warmed I tested the timing at idle (approx 800-900 RPM) and my timing was spot on with the timing light. So, one for static timing.
Lind,
I will try checking the timing at full advance to make sure the can is working properly. Is the RPMs @ 3,000 for full advance on my little 1600 engine? 30 deg advance BTDC?
.....
After 10+ years in setting my buses with feeler gauges and static timing, It was your YouTube video that caused me to consider checking my dwell in the first place....Thanks!!! Ha, ha.
I'll let you guys know what I find out this weekend.
Cheers
-Rich |
In all the years I have been working on VWs, I have never used feeler gauges for the points. Just eyeball it, and then check with the dwell meter. You get pretty good at it pretty quick. Dwell needs to be close, timing needs to be closer.
30 degrees at 3000 rpms is fine. Your distributor should be full in by there. You can see how the advance goes up with the timing light. If it is way off at idle, then get a better distributor. The timing at high rpms is the important thing.
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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| robin.richard wrote: |
| ........Both measure 32 deg dwell at idle. ....... |
Are you reading the 8 cylinder scale?, or maybe the 6?
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robin.richard
Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2012
Posts: 497
Location: V. Beach VA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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KTPhil,
They are a new set of points. Even though the engine runs great my concern is the dwell angle is so far off.
I have a file and clean up points all the time. The last set of points lasted a couple of years. Likely could have lasted even longer but I had several sets on the shelf so decided to replace them. Clean them up with a file and they are ready for many more miles. However, once I had a set go bad after a few months. I forgot to lube the cam and the cheap clear/milky white plastic block wore down to nothing. This only happened once.
I carry a couple of extra points in the bus. I also carry a spare distributor marked with a timing mark on the body to match the timing mark on the engine block, ready to drop in if the need arrives. Much easier to remove a bolt and drop in a new distributor than messing with points roadside on a cold wet night.
-Rich
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3446
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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If the pulley is degreed, you can measure the dwell with just a 12v bulb to the negative side of the coil
Measure when the light comes on as you rotate the motor until the light goes off. Subtract that from 180, divide by 2 and that is the dwell. A meter will always be the most accurate though |
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robin.richard
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Joined: February 17, 2012
Posts: 497
Location: V. Beach VA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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Busdaddy,
I too thought that at first, but I checked and rechecked. The Sears does not have a selection switch, only three scales. The Accurate Instruments has a selection switch for 4-6-8 cylinders.
Even if I was reading the 8-cylinders scale you would multiply by two I believe, so 32 deg would be 64 deg dwell, way too much.
Both meters read 32 deg dwell.
-Rich
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robin.richard
Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2012
Posts: 497
Location: V. Beach VA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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Chrisflstf,
It's a stock pulley, but that's an interesting way to get the dwell angle. Cool, thanks.
-Rich
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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Maybe the the cam in the distributor wore out from the bad points/bad lube, and now the "lift" is off enough that the dwell reads funny?
Does the dwell meter average the four readings, or is a digital that reacts fast enough to see each lobe?
If one lobe was worn (#1) and you use that one regularly, the average would be off.
Never seen one worn enough to do that, but it's possible, I suppose. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:26 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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| Quote: |
| Does the dwell meter average the four readings, or is a digital that reacts fast enough to see each lobe? |
That’s a great question. Analog meters are averaging, a dwell meter essentially measures the average voltage at the points slowly enough to smooth out the variation caused by each lobe. Most DVMs sample at about 1Hz which would be slow enough to do the same.
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Bulli Klinik
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Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 2079
Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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This is how I was taught to do it:
Hook up a remote starter switch. Just lightly loosen the screw which holds the points in place. Hook up you dwell meter. Place your screwdriver into the notch in which you adjust the points. Crank the engine over with the remote starter and adjust points until you have 50 degrees.
Taught to me a factory trained VW mechanic many years ago and far more accurate than a feeler gauge.
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3446
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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| Quote: |
| Hook up a remote starter switch. Just lightly loosen the screw which holds the points in place. Hook up you dwell meter. Place your screwdriver into the notch in which you adjust the points. Crank the engine over with the remote starter and adjust points until you have 50 degrees. |
How do you do that with only 2 hands? |
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Bulli Klinik
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Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 2079
Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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A thumb on the remote starter. Lay the dwell meter on the apron and adjust the points with hand 2.
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Dangermouse
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: Beautiful New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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| BulliBill wrote: |
I have an Innova timing light very similar in appearance to the one shown in a post above. FYI, They are pretty cool, very precise, but as I remember they need to be hooked up to a 12 volt system, and most of my old VWs are 6 volt powered. To get around that, a dear buddy (Brian Holcomb RIP) once showed me how to park any 12 volt car (or just a 12 volt car battery) next to the 6 volt car and hook up the "power wires/cables" from the Innova unit to the 12 volt car battery and the other cables from the Innova to the appropriate terminals on the 6 volt car and suddenly all was "hunky-dory"! Thanks again, and rest in peace Brian.
Bill |
I have the Innova timing light also but have found that, in order to use it to measure dwell on a 6 volter, you need to power it from a separate 12V source as you describe, but also run a separate ground wire from the neg terminal to a ground on the vehicle body. Don't ask me why, but this makes all the difference for dwell readings and took me an age to work out 
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LAGrunthaner
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Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5509
Location: 1st Coast
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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Lind can you or anyone here recommend a decent analog dwell meter and timing light to purchase? I like the digital one mentioned on pg1 but I would like old style as a start then invest in the fancy stuff at a later date or to check my homework. I've always had my mechanic (former student/friend) tune up my classic cars but it's time I learn.
| Lind wrote: |
Simple:
Get an analog dwell meter, set it at 46-50 degrees.
Get a dial advance timing light, rev it up and set your total advance at 28-30 degrees.
Done. |
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| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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Tizian
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2015
Posts: 383
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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| LAGrunthaner wrote: |
Lind can you or anyone here recommend a decent analog dwell meter and timing light to purchase? I like the digital one mentioned on pg1 but I would like old style as a start then invest in the fancy stuff at a later date or to check my homework. I've always had my mechanic (former student/friend) tune up my classic cars but it's time I learn.
| Lind wrote: |
Simple:
Get an analog dwell meter, set it at 46-50 degrees.
Get a dial advance timing light, rev it up and set your total advance at 28-30 degrees.
Done. |
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This is what I use:
(Don't have an image at hand) |
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Lind
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000
Posts: 9915
Location: idaho
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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| LAGrunthaner wrote: |
Lind can you or anyone here recommend a decent analog dwell meter and timing light to purchase? I like the digital one mentioned on pg1 but I would like old style as a start then invest in the fancy stuff at a later date or to check my homework. I've always had my mechanic (former student/friend) tune up my classic cars but it's time I learn.
| Lind wrote: |
Simple:
Get an analog dwell meter, set it at 46-50 degrees.
Get a dial advance timing light, rev it up and set your total advance at 28-30 degrees.
Done. |
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Any dwell meter with a needle and a 4 cylinder scale across the face rather than one that says to double the 8 cylinder reading. (unless you really enjoy using basic math skills every time you set your dwell)
For the dial advance timing light, I use a craftsman unit.
you can find these items on ebay for not much money.
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robin.richard
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Joined: February 17, 2012
Posts: 497
Location: V. Beach VA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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Lind et al,
I just checked my timing with the SEARS induction timing light, at idle and advanced, as previously set up with a static light and feeler gauge. It was spot on for both and you were right, I watched the timing advance as i increased the RPMs. The distributor reach full at about 2500-2800 RPMs and stayed there until 3000. I didn't go beyond 3000ish.
Next I will adjust the points gap to a dwell angle of 48 and see what happens.
I do like your BOSCH dwell meter. handheld and much smaller than my Accurate Instruments meter, not to mention my large all-in-one SEARS meter.
-Rich
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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| robin.richard wrote: |
Next I will adjust the points gap to a dwell angle of 48 and see what happens.
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And of course, then re-adjust the timing! |
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robin.richard
Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2012
Posts: 497
Location: V. Beach VA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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KTPhil,
Check.
-Rich
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robin.richard
Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2012
Posts: 497
Location: V. Beach VA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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Okay, just set dwell @ 48 and readjusted timing, checking both at idle and full advanced. As all mentioned it changed enough that it would have had issues going home tonight.
I'll report back when I get home from work. Keeping fingers crossed it does not stall out at red lights; traffic will be heavy at 5:00PM.
Just in case, I have my spare distributor ready to drop in if there are any issues after dark.
-Rich
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Pepperbilly
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Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Dwell question |
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I’ll just throw my 2 cents worth in…this is what I was taught and how I have been doing it successfully since the ‘60s.
Set my points initially with a feeler gauge at .016”. Start the engine and check the dwell reading with the hooked up dwell meter. Look for a dwell readng of 47+or- 3 degrees. If not correct stop the engine and reset with feeler again. Lastly and always lastly set the ignition timing. Done.
Bill |
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