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Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground?
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jimf909 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
The suggestion to add a ground between the alternator and body is one way to help this but it is better to add that wire between the alternator case and the engine case if that is where the problem is. Then fix or supplement the grounds between the engine case and the body but make sure they can each carry the starting current in the event that they become the only such starting ground some time in the future.

Mark



I found nearly all of my missing volt by cleaning the trans nose ground strap and adding: 4ga cable from the alt housing to the starter housing and a 4ga cable from the starter to the body (recognizing I can't rely on this cable alone for the engine to body ground).

Ground at alternator (Bostig)...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Grounds at starter (with WestyVentures TDI adapter plate)...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Comments and suggestions welcomed. Thanks.
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Abscate wrote:
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
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4Gears4Tires
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

jimf909 wrote:
Comments and suggestions welcomed. Thanks.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Do you think if I install an HKS grounding kit I will make more horsepower than a FLAPs battery cable? Is the 5 point kit enough or do I need the 8 point?
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jimf909 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

^^^ You're not asking the right question. The hp gains are easy, but incremental gains are always greater with red cables. Independent lab tests have shown that purple cables leak electrons. Laughing
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Abscate wrote:
Do not get killed, do not kill others.


Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

jimf909 wrote:
danfromsyr wrote:
any and all FLAPS have some ground cables with bolt lugs on each end already in varied lengths.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


handjammer wrote:
We must have the worst FLAPs in Seattle. All the cables I could find were either too short (6" for 2AWG), too skinny (>4AWG), or had the "wrong" lugs like in SoDo's picture.



My Advance auto parts had a total of two 4 ga cables with ring terminals (32" long and 48" long) and one 6 ga cable with ring terminals for a total of three such cables in the store so don't count on finding an assortment in varied lengths at any and all FLAPS.

danfromsyr wrote:
visit your local version of "farm & fleet" or "Tractor supply"
https://www.tractorsupply.com/


hehe, you said local Tractor Supply to someone who lives in Seattle, that's like saying visit your local Walmart. No Walmarts and no Tractor Supply stores in Seattle so nothing is really local and Tractor Supply or Walmart each require a 60-90 minute slog in traffic from my house (granted, our bridge is out for a few years making things worse).

Last June when i needed battery cables in rural Wisconsin for Mom's John Deere I found dozens at Blaine's Farm and Fleet. When I needed a battery cables in Seattle, I made 'em myself.

It takes self-reliance and ingenuity to make do in the city. Very Happy

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Nice 'cabling'... And SO true that the pickings for what were once common and easy to find items in a local retailer within a Metro area, are now 'weird' and 'rare', like "why would you want that?"...... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I now find myself juggling between all sorts of suppliers to get items. Crying or Very sad
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Dwighia
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

I also wanted to add an additional ground wire from my starter to the frame. However, as stated previously, the bolt on the starter is 1/2-inch. This presents a problem when all the battery/ground cable at the local flaps never exceeds 3/8-inch. So my solution was to take a piece of copper pipe and smash it flat. I then drilled 2 appropriately-sized holes. I then bolted the scab to the starter bolt and the cable. Thanks to others on this thread, I found a nice place to bolt the cable to the frame in the engine compartment.
Works for me.
Hope this is helpful.
Dwight
'84 1.9 stock Vanagon Camper

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

Dwighia wrote:
...as stated previously, the bolt on the starter is 1/2-inch. This presents a problem when all the battery/ground cable at the local flaps never exceeds 3/8-inch.


I thought a Vanagon starter used M10 bolts.
3/8" is 9.5mm.
Which would take just a minute with a round file to fit a 3/8" cable lug onto an M10 bolt.

My van has a Subaru starter, which uses M10 holts.

Is that a WestyVentures adapter + diesel starter ----> using M12 bolts?

I often wonder how many people bought a torquier starter after the OEM starter couldn't do it, simply because ground path has degraded over the years.
Basically, the amount of power that the ground path can "pass" is direcly related to the starter torque.

But if a hi-torque starter is
    more efficient at producing torque
    plus newer
    has recently excercised plus-and-minus connections....

.....it does seem reasonable that the same 30-years degraded ground path could actually start the engine "better" with a new hi-torque starter, than an old OEM starter.

I think what people wanna know is.......
    Is it feasible that the original starter... (perhaps old)
    can crank its own 1.9L WBX...
    if you restore its ground path to "new" status?


That's the $15 question.
I bet a few people have had success restoring the 12v+ path.
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Vana Guy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

4Gears4Tires wrote:
jimf909 wrote:
Comments and suggestions welcomed. Thanks.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Do you think if I install an HKS grounding kit I will make more horsepower than a FLAPs battery cable? Is the 5 point kit enough or do I need the 8 point?


This is one good way to add grounding in a vehicle with electronic engine control units. Simple adding grounds from here to there can cause problems with ECU.
With grounds, you want to connect A -B, A-C, A-D, A-E. Or A-B, B-C, C-D, D-E.
Ground like a tree, or daisy chain. Avoid loops.
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slo356
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

Dwighia wrote:
Thanks to others on this thread, I found a nice place to bolt the cable to the frame in the engine compartment.
Dwight


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dwight,
Clever solution with a copper pipe made into a strap allowing different diameters for bolts. You referenced the other end of the ground being located in the engine compartment. Can you be specific with a photo of the location you attached your new ground?

Also, your new cable is red. If you are using the cable as a ground, perhaps remove the cable and paint the insulation with a plastic friendly paint either black or brown to avoid future confusion of polarity.
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BrownLoaf
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

Did this upgrade last weekend. Off the shelf 14" 2/0 awg cable from Whatcom Electric and Battery in Bellingham. This is on an early van that still has the original undersized 2 awg positive wire. The difference in starter speed/tone with the new ground is noticeable and inspires confidence.

I grounded from the lower starter stud to the hole in the firewall in front of the air intake. This is the same ground point I use for grounding the LH/RH heads and case to the body (in addition to the stock ground from the LH head).

The 14" length is just right to route down and under the coolant hoses and has 2-3" clearance to the exhaust. I may add split conduit later but want to measure the temperature of the cable and see how much radiant heat it picks up from the exhaust. I expect it to be okay.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

I recently had the opportunity to look at a recent Smallcar conversion.
There was no "engine ground".
I suspect HUNDREDS of Smallcar conversions have no engine ground.
This is NOT good.

Smallcar conversion owners should restore the engine ground. An ideal location is from the manifold, direct to the chassis.

We were clued into this by noticing an electrical contribution to the phantom "4th gear erosion" problem inside the gearbox. It could take 10 years ?? for new (transaxle) groundpaths to degrade, and by then, VW has ended their responsibility. Then another 20-30 years for us antiquers to connect symptoms to the cause.
That's where we're at, right?
We're not OEMs, it takes awhile for us😎 but better late than never.

====================

Basically, the electricity is produced within the engine/gearbox unit.
Many owners are ADDING electrical load (big LiFePOs, 400 watts of headlights) at a time when the unit grounding has been significantly degraded (for YEARS).

Gotta get that electricity OFF the engine/gearbox unit without degrading the engine/gearbox unit.

I have big headlights and LiFePo so I grounded the alternator and starter directly as well.

---->Simple DIY project!
The aftermarket should offer a complete grounding upgrade kit (starter + alternator) and instructions.
There's lots of customers with LiFePo, 400Watts headlights and old transaxles.
Smallcar should offer a kit too. Wink
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
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....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

What is the ground path taken through the 4ᵀᴴ gear? When you crank your engine, why is 4ᵀᴴ gear even in the ground path?

I’ve noticed undue pitting on the CV joint balls, especially suspicious on low powered diesels.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground? Reply with quote

Gnarlodious wrote:
What is the ground path taken through the 4ᵀᴴ gear? When you crank your engine, why is 4ᵀᴴ gear even in the ground path?

I’ve noticed undue pitting on the CV joint balls, especially suspicious on low powered diesels.


Yes the CV balls can pass electricity too because the hubs are grounded by brake lines and the parking brake cables.
The starter is higher amperage but not (normally) a sustained event. It certainly can cause damage though, and visible pitting suggests higher amperage.

I think the 4th gear thrust surface "gets it" from the alternator (if the engine ground path is compromised).
After the oil flings off 4th gear thrust area

    on a sustained 4th gear event (highway, fast, 400watts of nighttime headlights, morning LifePo etc)
    as the oil film depletes,
    the metal parts begin to touch at the asperities
    and
    the slow machining process begins.


A few tiny black particles at a time (for 20, 30 years).

See EDM Electrical Discharge Machining for an example of how this phenomenon is used commercially.
You'd never make any money using the Vanagon process, it takes 10-20 years. Wink

It doesn’t bust all your sh*t right away.
Its a lot like gear oil, it takes 10,20 years to find these things you shoulda done 10-20 years ago, had youda known and cared.
Trust me, nobody cared or knew, or even cared to know.
I have a 2013 F150, which I like a lot.
I ain’t fussing with the grounds on the F150.

On old vehicles its best to make your ground paths maintainable, intentional, & direct to the chassis.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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