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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16505 Location: Brookeville, MD
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dgbeatty Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2006 Posts: 702 Location: Sacramento
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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A couple (or more) things are important.
Replace the cables. with a pair of overly long versions (oe part number 441 609 721 D or GEMO 402248). Remove the inner wires and heavily lube them with a compatible grease. Cut the housing to the new required lengths. Reassemble. Cut the inner wire to the new correct length. Throughly degrease the last inch or so and sweg on new stops then solder them in place using acid core solder. Completely clean the flux away when finished.
You are halfway there.
Remove the front cable, clean and relube. Lube the pivot points on the handle assemble. Next is another change. Install the heavy version of the return springs on the calipers. Refer to photographs. The new cables should be supported. An extra heavy duty tie strap works well if not elegantly.
I saved the most important step for last. It is the proper operation which is widely overlooked. When setting the handbrake on this type of caliper the foot brake "MUST BE FIRMLY DEPRESSED WHILE THE HANDBRAKE IS BEING SET"! This applies regardless of make ie Porsche, VW, Ford whatever. This is the most important step period! But like a lot of things these days the automakers have given up on driver training and have automated the parking brake with electric servos that fully apply and release the calipers automatically as called for by an algorithm.
_________________ Schau in das Buch |
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Crankey Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004 Posts: 2659
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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I bought burlys kit about 6 years ago.
I'm concidering just dumping it completely for a new GoWesty kit that promises 30% more hand brake force.
Any duplicate parts can go on the spare part shelf I spose but I like the catharsis of tossing into the scrap metal bin too. |
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mtnhome Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 500 Location: Summit County, CO
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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dgbeatty wrote: |
A couple (or more) things are important.
Replace the cables. with a pair of overly long versions (oe part number 441 609 721 D or GEMO 402248). Remove the inner wires and heavily lube them with a compatible grease. Cut the housing to the new required lengths. Reassemble. Cut the inner wire to the new correct length. Throughly degrease the last inch or so and sweg on new stops then solder them in place using acid core solder. Completely clean the flux away when finished.
You are halfway there.
Remove the front cable, clean and relube. Lube the pivot points on the handle assemble. Next is another change. Install the heavy version of the return springs on the calipers. Refer to photographs. The new cables should be supported. An extra heavy duty tie strap works well if not elegantly.
I saved the most important step for last. It is the proper operation which is widely overlooked. When setting the handbrake on this type of caliper the foot brake "MUST BE FIRMLY DEPRESSED WHILE THE HANDBRAKE IS BEING SET"! This applies regardless of make ie Porsche, VW, Ford whatever. This is the most important step period! But like a lot of things these days the automakers have given up on driver training and have automated the parking brake with electric servos that fully apply and release the calipers automatically as called for by an algorithm.
[Pix] |
Great info!
Do you have any part numbers or source for the HD springs?
Thanks! _________________ '84 Westy, '93 Subaru ej22 and Subarugears 5speed
Build thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=763098&highlight= |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16505 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9615 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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Crankey wrote: |
I bought burlys kit about 6 years ago…….
Any duplicate parts can go on the spare part shelf I spose but I like the catharsis of tossing into the scrap metal bin too. |
Yeah that was the same Audi caliper that SmallCar used. The cable actuator mechanism inside was simply no good. The Audi people hated them too. Poor research on SmallCars part, then “oops again” by Burley, which suprises me a little. Burley eventually flushed his Audi kit, offering a T4 kit a couple years ago. Smallcar still offers this Audi kit. https://smallcar.com/vanagon/wheel-tire-brake-and-...brake-kit/
I bought Samba member Jeff’s Jetta brackets ($250) and got some 2006 Jetta calipers and OEM cables from the junkyard ($107). Haven’t bought discs yet (288?).
Jeff says the Jetta calipers look bigger than the T4s. But I haven’t seen T4s. They are much bigger than the Audis. I’ll take pics when I bin the Audis.
Not sure what to do with my SmallCar disc kit. Agreed hucking it into the bin could be cathartic but it would always bug me that some flatlander could use it. The calipers can be painted red and the handle goes clickety-click.
PS …….RIP dgbeatty!! _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:02 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16505 Location: Brookeville, MD
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mtnhome Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 500 Location: Summit County, CO
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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dobryan wrote: |
mtnhome wrote: |
Great info!
Do you have any part numbers or source for the HD springs?
Thanks! |
I am sorry to report that Dan passed away a few weeks ago. His mind and spirit were strong but his aortic valve did not make it to a second transplant. He is missed. |
I'm sorry to hear this! I hope his friends and family are doing well. _________________ '84 Westy, '93 Subaru ej22 and Subarugears 5speed
Build thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=763098&highlight= |
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Crankey Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004 Posts: 2659
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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Sodo wrote: |
Crankey wrote: |
I bought burlys kit about 6 years ago…….
Any duplicate parts can go on the spare part shelf I spose but I like the catharsis of tossing into the scrap metal bin too. |
Yeah that was the same Audi caliper that SmallCar used. The cable actuator mechanism inside was simply no good. The Audi people hated them too. Poor research on SmallCars part, then “oops again” by Burley, which suprises me a little. Burley eventually flushed his Audi kit, offering a T4 kit a couple years ago. Smallcar still offers this Audi kit. https://smallcar.com/vanagon/wheel-tire-brake-and-...brake-kit/
I bought Samba member Jeff’s Jetta brackets ($250) and got some 2006 Jetta calipers and OEM cables from the junkyard ($107). Haven’t bought discs yet (288?).
Jeff says the Jetta calipers look bigger than the T4s. But I haven’t seen T4s. They are much bigger than the Audis. I’ll take pics when I bin the Audis.
Not sure what to do with my SmallCar disc kit. Agreed hucking it into the bin could be cathartic but it would always bug me that some flatlander could use it. The calipers can be painted red and the handle goes clickety-click.
PS …….RIP dgbeatty!! |
That's totally true and I don't like tossing stuff into bins Im usually pulling stuff out of.
I could contact Burley and ask him to sell me just an 'update' kit but I'm concidering rolling this fix into the engine swap and I don't want the folks working on it to deal with a bit of this and a piece of that...just tear it all off and use the complete kit in the box. Well except for the heavy springs dgbeatty is showing there...it never stops does it.🙄 |
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leecat Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2012 Posts: 773 Location: Regina
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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Admittedly I haven't read this entire thread, but I've found it far easier to install Audi electric rear brakes if you have a rear disc setup. The Audi electric calipers bolt straight up to one mounting hole (if you're running A3 - and I suspect A4 discs) and only need a small bracket fabbed up to attach to the other mounting hole. Brake line fittings are identical VW-to-Audi.
Then instead of fighting with cables and adjusters and springs, it just requires a wire to a momentary switch on the dash - hold that switch down and the e-brake locks right up. Brush the switch gently and you can set the pressure on the rear brakes by feel.
If you're running 14 inch rims, the Audi calipers need to have about 1/8" ground off the 'hump' at the back of them to clear the rim. Very simple to install and can be done in less than a day - IF you already have rear discs, of course. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9615 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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Crankey wrote: |
I ask him to sell me just an 'update' kit |
That's an interesting idea....
leecat wrote: |
Admittedly I haven't read this entire thread,......
instead of fighting with cables and adjusters and springs, |
If you do read it you will find members throwing cables at the problem and nobody showing the parking brake holding (well). An electric actuator would be the same as a "new cable". Ho help at all when the internal caliper mechanism doesn't work.
Electric would be nice for a street van, you could delete the pull-handle from the floor!
I wouldn't use electric for off-roady use.
I want to feel and modulate the cable tension manually (for different(ial) reasons ).
Provided it actually brakes the wheel...... _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16879 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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Sodo wrote: |
An electric actuator would be the same as a "new cable". |
not even close.
the electric parking brakes with the motor on the caliper is like a screw jack and if left unregulated (by the lack of a PBM or parking brake module) will blow the gear reduction in the motor assy to oblivion
i may or may not have thrown the switch on a '19 XC90 doing 60mph. it may or may not have locked both wheels and left 2 dark skid marks on the pavement resulting in flat spots on the tires. a XC90 weighs 4400lbs
if i were to go disks in the rear, electric parking brakes would be the way i would go. i've worked with them long enough now to know they are far superior to cable actuated calipers. _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9615 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
Sodo wrote: |
An electric actuator would be the same as a "new cable". |
not even close.
the electric parking brakes with the motor on the caliper is like a screw jack and if left unregulated (by the lack of a PBM or parking brake module) will blow the gear reduction in the motor assy to oblivion |
OK so that's changing to a different caliper, not just pulling harder on an Audi-200 caliper.
I tried increasing the holding force by lengthening the lever-arm.
All it did was overcome the auto adjust, (slipping inside).
Then you have to pull the brake again repeatedly to re-adjust.
I doubt there is any force that can make the Audi 200 caliper hold a 5,000 lb van. Maybe an empty 2wd tintop...
All neither here nor there - as the Audi200 brake is a serious downgrade for a Van.
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
i may or may not have thrown the switch on a '19 XC90 doing 60mph. it may or may not have locked both wheels and left 2 dark skid marks on the pavement resulting in flat spots on the tires. a XC90 weighs 4400lbs
if i were to go disks in the rear, electric parking brakes would be the way i would go. i've worked with them long enough now to know they are far superior to cable actuated calipers. |
I agree there are cars where on/off parking brake could be OK.
But not for me, my preference is manual control of gearbox/clutch/brakes.
You are saying the Volvo's electric parking brake locks the rear wheels at speed, overcoming the AWD too?
Interesting.
Dunno what the torque split controls are capable of but I would expect that the traction control system wouldn't allow anything (electric) to lock wheels.
These are just my un-educated assumptions. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Crankey Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004 Posts: 2659
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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In the rainy winter, on a hill waiting on a light I've definitely needed the hand brake to guarantee no back roll as I engage the clutch because the guy behind me was too close for comfort.
Can electric park brake do that ? Or are they just on/off with a button ? I've never had those before.. |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16879 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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Sodo wrote: |
You are saying the Volvo's electric parking brake locks the rear wheels at speed, overcoming the AWD too?
Interesting.
Dunno what the torque split controls are capable of but I would expect that the traction control system wouldn't allow anything (electric) to lock wheels.
These are just my un-educated assumptions. |
what i'm saying is with the right fuses pulled you can make cars do shit they were never suppose to do
i get your point about staying mechanical but here in New England any VAG cable operated caliper has a very short life span and have always been poor in holding power...even on the cars they were designed for
i have only replaced 1 electronic caliper and it was due to accident damage. i have never had an issue with one since they got popular about 15 years ago or so.
cable operated.... seem to need cables and calipers about every 6 years here _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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Suspension and underbody stuff just doesn't rust out here in the PNW, like it does in the rustbelt or Europe. That's a moot point.
Just use '01-'03 T4 rear brakes, and be done with it. They're proven to work great on similarly sized and weight rigs _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16505 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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Believe me, my specialties are Transporters and MB 124s; both of which are known to rust from the bottom up in other markets. They just simply don't here in the PNW. Both will rust around the window perimeters and along the body seams, but that's it. I currently have a '73 Super Beetle here with intact original pans and front frame horn. The only rust is in the rear half moon ventilation ducts. That's virtually unheard of in most other Northern hemisphere markets. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9615 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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The Jetta cables that I got at the junkyard were 2006 and are in perfect condition.
Very nice OEM quality.
I will try to grease them. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Franklinstower Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006 Posts: 1896 Location: PNW
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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Sodo wrote: |
The Jetta cables that I got at the junkyard were 2006 and are in perfect condition.
Very nice OEM quality.
I will try to grease them. |
FYI - Those Jetta Calipers are nearly identical to the T4 calipers except for the caliper bracket, same sized piston, but mount forward instead of behind the axle, but I believe the Jetta Brake Pad is slightly larger. Also, those Brackets you got from Jeff do fit the T4 Calipers, so they really offer great options. And give you the ability to use either of the Eurovan T4 rotors depending on if you have 15 or 16" wheels (280mm or 294mm). Really nice bracket he designed. I also like how the Jetta calipers use the same brake cable. _________________ '89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
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