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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5475 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:11 pm Post subject: Axle boot hell... |
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What is the best split axle boot for swingaxle available now? I'm a bit frustrated because I have a buggy sitting still in the garage with a near new, but failing axle boot. A couple years ago I swapped transaxles and when I did I swapped my "old" axle boots onto the replacement transaxle. These boots may have been 3 years old but had few miles and looked great -- no checking of the rubber inside or out, no stress marks, no visible wear, perhaps 6000 miles use. I put them on, filled the box -- and one leaked. After some searching that turned out to be a tiny pinhole. It looked like a single fine strand of wire had punctured it, leaving a nearly invisible hole. I don't want to replace both because that looks like some fluke failure, plus I had a new boot still in a bag. Age unknown, it was picked up with some parts or another I swapped and was new.
That new boot has stress cracks in the rubber from just sitting in place in the garage for the last year. I was careful to install the boot with the axle level, and not twisted. Camber is slightly positive as the body is off, but the torsions are lowered so I have slightly negative camber when driving. In this almost level boot I see cracking that is close to a split! I don't dare poke it without draining the transaxle first.
So, what is the best currently available split swingaxle boot? I didn't even drive on that one and it failed! _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69809 Location: Phoenix Metro
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5475 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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Thanks. I bet the other boot is EMPI, but current quality is sometimes not what is used to be. Without other recommendations, or un-recommendations based on recent replacement failures, I will likely go that route.
Does anyone recognize the brand logo on the side of the boot? I don't want to buy that brand on accident! _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Luftwagen 2180 Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2020 Posts: 50 Location: Ontario Canada
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Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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A couple of years ago I replaced mine on the Buggy with CIP ones, Maybe 1 year before cracking? Noticed it on the weekend before a car show and there was not enough time to order another from CIP. No one stocked local so I ordered one from my FLAPS. The guy at the store said they order from World Pac. It came with the clamps that you need a special tool for. Molded into the rubber was "Volkswagen" and "Made in West Germany". The package said made in Germany. The price was good so I got a couple of spares. I just checked and the new ones stored in my shed so no signs of cracking even when folded over on itself. Hopefully it's just the mold that is old, since the country has gone out of business. Hope this helps. |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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Similar issue discussed in the topis "EMPI AXle boots on CRACK" @
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=763567
A very successful family of Class 11 offroad racers the other day also recommended the black EMPI poly split boots. In spite of more than a decade working in plastics R&D, I don't know why the colored boots would be more inclined to crack and fail than the black ones. The plastic should be the same aside form the colorant. Just the other day while talking to my friend Manny about his boots failing, I looked at the boots on my Hi Jumper buggy that I retired from racing in 1984 after a severe crash. It STILL has the same yellow poly boots on the axles that it had then. Not cracked or otherwise damaged. They may not look real new, but they're still fine. Bit of quality difference. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5475 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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A couple of votes for the black EMPI boots. It looks like DustyMojave is talking about this style. EverettB, are you talking about those ones or the EMPI stock style?
I've never used those thinner bellows style boots. I think mostly because they looks to me like they would be inclined to leak a little where the split seam flange meets the hose clamp area. Perhaps I've been shunning the better choice, but this thread isn't very favorable to them. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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MrGoodtunes Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012 Posts: 852 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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I have had the fanfold bellows style black boots on my daily driver buggy for over 30 years with no leak, but EMPI was a different company back in the mid-1980s when I bought them. |
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toxicavenger70 Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2019 Posts: 871 Location: CO
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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EverettB wrote: |
(Febi for one) often failed within 1-2 years. |
Same. The Empi silicon boots I replaced them with are doing great. |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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EVfun wrote: |
A couple of votes for the black EMPI boots. It looks like DustyMojave is talking about this style. EverettB, are you talking about those ones or the EMPI stock style?
I've never used those thinner bellows style boots. I think mostly because they looks to me like they would be inclined to leak a little where the split seam flange meets the hose clamp area. Perhaps I've been shunning the better choice, but this thread isn't very favorable to them. |
Yes. Those are the boots I was talking about EVFun.
I've never had an issue with leakage where you're saying. But obviously the current crop of EMPI poly boots are NOT up to the quality standards of decades ago.
To toxicavenger, I don't think those boots are made of urethane. More likely a poly vinyl chloride (PVC). or a polyolefin.
Regardless what material they're made of, rubber, poly-whatever or blue jeans, if they don't last a year, they're not very good. If I was offroad racing Class 9 (VW swingaxle required) or Class 11 (Mostly stock Bug, if the car came swingaxle, you must use swingaxle) and I had to replace boots a couple times per race season...OK. But on the street, that's not acceptable. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5475 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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It looks like the problem picking a good axle boot is that by the time you realize you have a bad one a couple years have passed. With the ever changing (declining?) quality of suppliers what you bought before and what you get now may be different, even from the same source.
It is clear that the good older boot on the left side is an EMPI #9916 stock style boot. Since current quality looks like a roll of the dice I ordered up the same to replace the right boot. I'll see how that works.
Does anyone know how much gear oil needs to be removed to swap the boot without making a huge mess? I pumped most of it out last time, clearly way more than needed. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4027 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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Just jack the side you are working on above horizontal so the oil won’t drain out…… _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69809 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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EVfun wrote: |
A couple of votes for the black EMPI boots. It looks like DustyMojave is talking about this style. EverettB, are you talking about those ones or the EMPI stock style?
I've never used those thinner bellows style boots. I think mostly because they looks to me like they would be inclined to leak a little where the split seam flange meets the hose clamp area. Perhaps I've been shunning the better choice, but this thread isn't very favorable to them. |
Sorry, I don't know.
I admit to repeating what I had seen others post in the past without realizing there were 2 options. _________________ How to Post Photos
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5475 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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clonebug wrote: |
Just jack the side you are working on above horizontal so the oil won’t drain out…… |
Just taking a glance at it, the fill plug seems quite a bit higher than the bottom of the big end of the axle boot. I know it's full of Redline MT90 to right at the bottom of the fill plug. How much higher does one side have to be to get keep the oil in with the axle boot removed? Jacking the car up at a good angle would make working under there easier. Typically I've just jacked the back end of the car way up and put it on jack stands. Perhaps that sends enough of the oil to the front of the gearbox?
Traditionally, I would drain and replace the gear oil with an axle boot change. I just assumed that if the oil was up to the drain plug is was well above the axle hole in the side cover. Since my box is full of zero mile MT90 I was thinking maybe I only needed to pump 1 quart of gear oil into a recently emptied motor oil container to lower the level enough. Perhaps what I've been doing since the '80's isn't needed at all? _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4027 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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EVfun wrote: |
clonebug wrote: |
Just jack the side you are working on above horizontal so the oil won’t drain out…… |
Just taking a glance at it, the fill plug seems quite a bit higher than the bottom of the big end of the axle boot. I know it's full of Redline MT90 to right at the bottom of the fill plug. How much higher does one side have to be to get keep the oil in with the axle boot removed? Jacking the car up at a good angle would make working under there easier. Typically I've just jacked the back end of the car way up and put it on jack stands. Perhaps that sends enough of the oil to the front of the gearbox?
Traditionally, I would drain and replace the gear oil with an axle boot change. I just assumed that if the oil was up to the drain plug is was well above the axle hole in the side cover. Since my box is full of zero mile MT90 I was thinking maybe I only needed to pump 1 quart of gear oil into a recently emptied motor oil container to lower the level enough. Perhaps what I've been doing since the '80's isn't needed at all? |
When you jack it up the trans case will also be tipped so the oil level will be lower on the high side.
You also replace the boot before you top off the trans...... _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5475 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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clonebug wrote: |
You also replace the boot before you top off the trans...... |
There would be no topping up needed right now. The boot is not yet leaking, as bad as that crack looks. If I just loose what is in the boot I doubt the level change would be noticeable at the fill plug. This isn't the normal case of driving around with a broken boot, dripping out oil until the transaxle is half empty. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4027 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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The disc of the axle cover seals up the trans pretty good. With it jacked up a bit so the axle tube drains back into the trans the leakage is minimal and you can wipe the clamping surface quickly before installing the boot with the flange up between 10:00 and 2:00.
I don't recall having a problem with leakage when I changed my boots. I try to get the axle and trans square with each other so there is little strain on the boot when installing.
My last set has done the best and have been on there for almost 3 years without leaking.
I had more trouble with the sealing in the end cap but fixed that with a better o-ring from Oringsandmore.com. They have also been leak free since I installed them. _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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MrGoodtunes Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012 Posts: 852 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Axle boot hell... |
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IIRC @EVfun, your buggy chasis is a '62 swing axle. So you can take advantage of axle tube capacity for holding some trans gear oil, by raising rear withOUT raising rear wheels. Which ever side you're working on can go up a little higher, but let that wheel droop so fluid goes down that tube toward wheel. You can straighten it out after getting the boot in place; and when straight, finish tightening the hose clamps. |
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