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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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 Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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| stevemariott wrote: |
Jim - thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.
| jim martin wrote: |
| So you asked for any more input , this is what I would recommend.based on your input and amount of track time and E.T etc etc. |
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While I greatly appreciate the info from someone with Jim’s experience, I think there is some miscommunication about what comment is directed to which member about which setup. I think his comments were directed to stealth67vw to better his track performance. Creating a purpose build race transaxle is miserable to drive on the street, if it can be practically driven at all. While a Type 2 transaxle is more durable than a Type 1, there should be no reason to need one with less than 150hp. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17285
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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| RickS wrote: |
Bruce, any experience with the Folts 091 billet super diff and side covers for type 1? |
Like everything Dave Folts invents, it is an excellent product!
It solves two shortcomings of a Type 1 IRS diff. The weak spider gears and the splines that tend to snap off.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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stevemariott
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 1051
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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I could be wrong, but I believe he was addressing both stealth67vw and me - first with some clutch comments towards stealth67vw, and then comments towards my question.
In any case, I really appreciate everyones thoughts. I’ll be calling a trans guy or two to talk about upgrading my current swingaxle, or getting a new one. I don’t have any plans to put a bus ‘box in my Manx.
| [email protected] wrote: |
While I greatly appreciate the info from someone with Jim’s experience, I think there is some miscommunication about what comment is directed to which member about which setup. I think his comments were directed to stealth67vw to better his track performance. Creating a purpose build race transaxle is miserable to drive on the street, if it can be practically driven at all. While a Type 2 transaxle is more durable than a Type 1, there should be no reason to need one with less than 150hp. |
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1963 Manx copy
1968 Bus |
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jim martin
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2004
Posts: 217
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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its been a great topic and always fun to pass some info along and see Bruce chime in . Happy new year Bruce .
sorry point i was trying to get across is if you start pushing hard and after a few failures in a type 1 potato chip transaxle ( been there ) it would of bean cheaper to install a type 2 box and be done with it . way less stress on the wallet .
but i know its not for everyone
also as far as a dedicated drag box on the street as long as its not pro ringed or running a spool there will be no issues at all .
my box has full synchro's and a peloquin diff and it shifts beautiful .
but now because of people like Ron Lummus who has come up with fantastic clutch discs and complete clutch systems - type 1 boxes can live a real long time do to the reduced shock load placed apon them
have fun
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17285
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:27 am Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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| modok wrote: |
It's probably -safest- to run an open diff, it won't steer you side to side no matter what happens.
A torque biasing diff must be safer than a spool, but still can steer you some. |
I've seen the opposite.
A friend has a big hp street car. It's full weight, all steel and has dipped into the 11s.
When it had an open super diff, I took it for a ride. On a straight street, 2 lanes each way, no other cars, I got on it hard in 3rd. By itself, it steered into the left lane. I didn't try to correct it until it started crossing the yellow lines.
Later, we put a Quaife in it. When I repeated the same test run, the car stayed exactly centered in the right lane. No drama like before.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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H2OSB
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013
Posts: 1291
Location: Modesto, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| RickS wrote: |
Bruce, any experience with the Folts 091 billet super diff and side covers for type 1? |
Like everything Dave Folts invents, it is an excellent product!
It solves two shortcomings of a Type 1 IRS diff. The weak spider gears and the splines that tend to snap off. |
The only disadvantage is the cost. At least sourced from Weddle, who obviously sells it. It's nearly the cost of the Peloquin TBD. If I were willing to spend over $1k for a diffential, I would just buy the TBD. But that's just me. Weddle sells the IRS Super Diff and 10/15 gears for less than $300. A lot of you guys are dealing with pwer levels substantially higher than the OP and that gives you different considerations, but anything under 125hp, its difficult to justify a $1k+ differential.
H2OSB
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(o\_i_/o) I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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| H2OSB wrote: |
A lot of you guys are dealing with pwer levels substantially higher than the OP and that gives you different considerations, but anything under 125hp, its difficult to justify a $1k+ differential.
H2OSB |
Exactly....
A lot of useful info from members with more experience than 99% of the site, but not all of it is really useful to those asking for it.
I understand the op’s question as someone with a dry street driven buggy with less than 125hp wanting to have a consistent/reliable street driveable swing axle transaxle to use at the track for less than 20 passes a year. Their differential requirement is for something that can be driven on the street, that will have consistent performance at the track.
Quaife, and GT make swing axle torque biasing differentials. Quaife, and Peloquin make IRS torque biasing differentials.
I would estimate a Type 2 transaxle with swing axle conversion axles is going to run north of $10k in 2022.
Having a transaxle geared to run 145mph through the traps of a 1/4 mile may be very similar to the factory 4.12/.89, and be a pleasure to drive down the interstate at 75mph. While the op seems to be able to live with a 4.12/1.04, having optimal gearing for 115mph at the track is less than tolerable trying to cruise anywhere at 65+mph.
You can drive a non syncro, spooled diff vehicle on the street. It’s just not at all practical, and you can’t get caught in the rain. |
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RickS
Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 430
Location: Speonk, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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| H2OSB wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| RickS wrote: |
Bruce, any experience with the Folts 091 billet super diff and side covers for type 1? |
Like everything Dave Folts invents, it is an excellent product!
It solves two shortcomings of a Type 1 IRS diff. The weak spider gears and the splines that tend to snap off. |
The only disadvantage is the cost. At least sourced from Weddle, who obviously sells it. It's nearly the cost of the Peloquin TBD. If I were willing to spend over $1k for a diffential, I would just buy the TBD. But that's just me. Weddle sells the IRS Super Diff and 10/15 gears for less than $300. A lot of you guys are dealing with pwer levels substantially higher than the OP and that gives you different considerations, but anything under 125hp, its difficult to justify a $1k+ differential.
H2OSB |
While definitely more money, the Folts kit includes 2 billet side covers. Those top quality parts are $200 each. Now the price differential isn’t as great as it seems at first.
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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| RickS wrote: |
| H2OSB wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| RickS wrote: |
Bruce, any experience with the Folts 091 billet super diff and side covers for type 1? |
Like everything Dave Folts invents, it is an excellent product!
It solves two shortcomings of a Type 1 IRS diff. The weak spider gears and the splines that tend to snap off. |
The only disadvantage is the cost. At least sourced from Weddle, who obviously sells it. It's nearly the cost of the Peloquin TBD. If I were willing to spend over $1k for a diffential, I would just buy the TBD. But that's just me. Weddle sells the IRS Super Diff and 10/15 gears for less than $300. A lot of you guys are dealing with pwer levels substantially higher than the OP and that gives you different considerations, but anything under 125hp, its difficult to justify a $1k+ differential.
H2OSB |
While definitely more money, the Folts kit includes 2 billet side covers. Those top quality parts are $200 each. Now the price differential isn’t as great as it seems at first.
|
The Type 1 091 geared diff kit pictured is $1087 on Weddle’s site, and that doesn’t include the $148 side/spider gear set.
A standard IRS super diff is $185. The billet side covers are $200 each, and the cast econo ones are $72. Type 1 side gears are $19.50 each, with new spiders around $30 each.
It’s around $490 difference IF you are buying two billet side covers, a standard super diff, and all of the internal Type 1 gears.
In all actuality, it is closer to a $1k difference. If you are installing a super diff in a later IRS trans, you’re only buying two additional spider gears from the gears you already have. You only need one side cover, and those with 125hp are buying the $72 cast ones. If you are lucky enough to be starting with a trans with a dual ring factory aluminum side cover, you’re not buying an aftermarket one at all.
Since we’re back on the IRS tangent, I would be curious to see how well the cross pin holes do hold up on the 091 internal diff considering the housing is aluminum. |
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RickS
Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 430
Location: Speonk, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| RickS wrote: |
| H2OSB wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| RickS wrote: |
Bruce, any experience with the Folts 091 billet super diff and side covers for type 1? |
Like everything Dave Folts invents, it is an excellent product!
It solves two shortcomings of a Type 1 IRS diff. The weak spider gears and the splines that tend to snap off. |
The only disadvantage is the cost. At least sourced from Weddle, who obviously sells it. It's nearly the cost of the Peloquin TBD. If I were willing to spend over $1k for a diffential, I would just buy the TBD. But that's just me. Weddle sells the IRS Super Diff and 10/15 gears for less than $300. A lot of you guys are dealing with pwer levels substantially higher than the OP and that gives you different considerations, but anything under 125hp, its difficult to justify a $1k+ differential.
H2OSB |
While definitely more money, the Folts kit includes 2 billet side covers. Those top quality parts are $200 each. Now the price differential isn’t as great as it seems at first.
|
The Type 1 091 geared diff kit pictured is $1087 on Weddle’s site, and that doesn’t include the $148 side/spider gear set.
A standard IRS super diff is $185. The billet side covers are $200 each, and the cast econo ones are $72. Type 1 side gears are $19.50 each, with new spiders around $30 each.
It’s around $490 difference IF you are buying two billet side covers, a standard super diff, and all of the internal Type 1 gears.
In all actuality, it is closer to a $1k difference. If you are installing a super diff in a later IRS trans, you’re only buying two additional spider gears from the gears you already have. You only need one side cover, and those with 125hp are buying the $72 cast ones. If you are lucky enough to be starting with a trans with a dual ring factory aluminum side cover, you’re not buying an aftermarket one at all.
Since we’re back on the IRS tangent, I would be curious to see how well the cross pin holes do hold up on the 091 internal diff considering the housing is aluminum. |
In my case, a single side cover case is not an option, car is mid engine.
Rancho has the same kit for $995.
Good question on the aluminum diff. I’ve bought stuff from Dave before, always top notch, never cheap. Lol |
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stevemariott
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 1051
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Torque-biasing Differential vs. Super Diff on the Track |
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gkeeton,
I think I got what I was looking for - posts from racers and those with experience.
What I want is the best value per dollar. From what I’ve gathered, the current swingaxle superdiffs are not very high quality, they need a bunch of modifications straight out of the box, and they should be seen as a consumable item. Fair enough.
My car isn’t super high HP, but I'll add more as time goes on. I will make more than 20 passes a year - I made 21 or 22 between last August and October. My roll bar limits ETs to 12.0, and frankly that’s faster than I want to go in a short-wheelbase, no top, fiberglass buggy. Totally happy to live with a 1.04 4th as it’s not a long-distance driver.
My thinking was that I’d rather spend the $$ up front for a high-quality diff - something that wasn’t so comsumable. You know, the best you can get for whatever it is, like IDAs or a Berg shifter (my opinion). I just wanted to know if a TBD was worth the $$ for what I'm doing. Opinions say I should spend my money elsewhere. Makes sense.
If people are putting on hundreds of passes on their superdiff-equipped swingaxle beetles, that’s probably good enough for my little Manx. I’m real happy with the car as it's built, swingaxle and all, I just want reliability as I ask a little more from it.
| [email protected] wrote: |
A lot of useful info from members with more experience than 99% of the site, but not all of it is really useful to those asking for it.
I understand the op’s question as someone with a dry street driven buggy with less than 125hp wanting to have a consistent/reliable street driveable swing axle transaxle to use at the track for less than 20 passes a year. Their differential requirement is for something that can be driven on the street, that will have consistent performance at the track.
Quaife, and GT make swing axle torque biasing differentials. Quaife, and Peloquin make IRS torque biasing differentials.
I would estimate a Type 2 transaxle with swing axle conversion axles is going to run north of $10k in 2022.
Having a transaxle geared to run 145mph through the traps of a 1/4 mile may be very similar to the factory 4.12/.89, and be a pleasure to drive down the interstate at 75mph. While the op seems to be able to live with a 4.12/1.04, having optimal gearing for 115mph at the track is less than tolerable trying to cruise anywhere at 65+mph.
You can drive a non syncro, spooled diff vehicle on the street. It’s just not at all practical, and you can’t get caught in the rain. |
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1963 Manx copy
1968 Bus |
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