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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:42 am    Post subject: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

I've seen this topic touched on in other threads, but not a specific thread. With an increase in various watercooled conversions, comes an increase in options for climate control, including water cooled heat and increased power for A/C systems.

So I would really like to see how you've set up your climate control systems to utilize these advantages of watercooled motors.

Currently my bus just has a Vanagon rear seat heater under the back seat. Quite a bit of room for improvement!
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been looking at the Heater Craft Website and thinking something from them might fit the bill of fitting above the splash pan (even if it has to be modified slightly) and then being ducted into the factory duct work and into the distribution "Christmas Tree."

Specifically I'm thinking something like this:
http://www.heatercraft.com/marine-heater-200-unit-only-sport-pro-elite/

Or this:
http://www.heatercraft.com/marine-heater-200-unit-only-sport-pro-elite/

I have no idea if 28,000 BTUs would be sufficient, or if 40,000 would be warranted/useful.

My bus also had an under dash A/C system. I removed all that stuff years ago but saved it. I'm thinking of reinstalling and utilizing the TDIs compressor to drive it.

Any experience with something like that? I'm aware that accessing the back side of the dash becomes a pain with the AC unit installed (which is probably part of why I removed it years ago). Experience with an aftermarket system that I should consider as an alternative?
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Krautski
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had that heater in since 2011, works very well. It should work well for you also.
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krautski wrote:
I've had that heater in since 2011, works very well. It should work well for you also.


Is yours currently mounted just under the dash? (Seems that is what you said in the TDI bus thread.)

You said you were thinking of moving it. Where to/What are you considering?

I think under the floor would prevent or significantly reduce air pocket in the coolant issues.
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tristessa
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm the one who has it under the dash. I'm fine with the location now that I've got the idiosyncrasies dealt with -- adding coolant using a funnel with a long hose through the glovebox door looks odd, but it's not something I have to do very often. I've still got a weepy leak or two someplace, so I have to top it off every 5-6 months.

Checking is easy, barely have to get out of the driver's seat to do that. Laughing
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hometurbine
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

Tristessa,
I just finished my Subaru conversion and now considering heat options. I'm debating running hoses to the front (well insulated) with a small heater core. Looks like yours is inside the bus (vs. underneath the cab).

Do you also have a heater in the rear as well or did you just focus on the front due to losses?

I sent you a PM, if you don't mind I have a few more questions. I can post some of the things I try/learn, but I wanted to see what was already successful.

thanks
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

the vanagon or similar sized heater cores do *ok* for taking the edge off, for sure it won't roast you out. it does however keep you reasonably comfy.

that said, so many don't run their buses in the winter so i have never gone any bigger when i do a swap. if you go too big and run it in cold weather using a subaru you for sure will need to do something with the thermostat feedback loop so you don't overheat in the winter.

you may be the odd man out here, running your bus in the winter that is.
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

I know you didn't ask me, but my heat setup is somewhat different now than what I was posting about in 2014.

I bought rear heater setups from Vanagons; I have one in the front and one under the rear seat.

The rear seat one is set up basically like you'd expect.

The front one is now bolted upside-down to the underside of the front floor, under the passenger's feet. It had to be placed "just right" to fit with the splash pan, but does.

I did modify the vent portion, so that the fan blows right up into the heater tree.

It currently only heats outside air, but on occasion I do noodle on ways to make it recirculate. Haven't done that yet.

Since setting that up, I bought a Eurovan that has a floor-mounted rear heater. I have to imagine that using one of these would be even more suited for this use--it is mounted under the floor and therefore somewhat weatherized and has a boot to facilitate recirculation.

I also have an Espar D2 heater mounted between the frame rails, in front of the radiator. It provides heat when camping, and occasionally is used for extra heat if driving in particularly cold weather.
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Shonandb
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

I used my Subaru donor's heater A/C blower unit under my backseat and piped it through the floor and ran a 3" insulated duct up to the defroster tree. Works well for heat but will have to see how it does for A/C.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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hometurbine
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

Thank you all for your input.

I should clarify what I'm really after isn't perfect winter heat, but maybe enough to defrost the windshield and possibly a bit of heat in the cab. Heat in the rear would be a bonus, but like most I probably won't do much winter driving.

Option 1: Shonandb
- use original Subaru blower etc....so you ran your piping under the floor where the radiator fan inlet is? Wouldn't that cool the air quite a bit?

Option 2: VWWestyman
- use vanagon rear heater cores both in the front and back...is this what they look like (scoll down link)? For the front that seems really big to fit under splashplate....Do you have a picture of your set-up?
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=489364

Option 3: Only heater core in front

Option 4: Skills- only heat in rear

The rear heat isn't as much of a question since there isn't much of a size constraint and it sounds like many options would work. Such as
28K BTU; 260 CFM
https://www.go2marine.com/Heater-Craft-200-Series-Marine-Heater-w-two-3-vents-Heat-Unit-Only
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-991102-1
- vanagon rear unit

The front has more size constraints: so under floor
- upside down vanagon unit
- maybe one of these types (20K BTU; 177 CFM)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0716Y3TRD/ref=sw_img_1?smid=&psc=1

I also hear the cautions from Skills about maybe needing to modify the coolant thermostat if there is too much coolant going to heaters so as to not overheat the engine. VWwestyman you ran both, did you have issues? Are you running 1 coolant loop in series or 2? Is it like the Vanagon in link above and has a heater control valve?

Thanks for thoughts
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

hometurbine wrote:
VWwestyman you ran both, did you have issues? Are you running 1 coolant loop in series or 2? Is it like the Vanagon in link above and has a heater control valve?

Thanks for thoughts


he's not subaru power so totally different animal

i'd put a core up front behind the glove box. you may need to trim the box but could be done.

i did a splash pan special for a customer. meh. it was ok, but the core is too small to be really effective.

one downfall to what i do is the core being under the rear seat is for heat only, so no defrost, except for splash pan special guy but it wasn't all that great.

i have no interest in defrost, really don't need it seeing i don't drive my shit once the salt is on the ground so i never did any r+d and no one has really wanted to pony up for me to do it.

that said....now that i own a vanagon i can tell you this.... to get good heat up front you need a massive core. don't know the size but i'd say it's all of 2 feet long and 1.5-2" thick

basically, your heater core becomes a radiator until it tickles the thermostat and pisses a bit of coolant to the radiator
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my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

Skills is right, I can't comment on how my heating plumbing does or doesn't affect a Subaru thermostat. It's more or less plumbed like a Vanagon was.

I found a couple pics on my phone of the heater mounted to the floor.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Prior to this, it was mounted to the splash pan, which made removing the pan for any reason, really a pain. At that time, I also didn't get as good of flow through the core to the vents due to the hose I had to use to connect the two (had to be flexible to be able to shove up into the heater tree while hanging from the pan).

With it mounted as it is now, air flow is much improved.

Prior to this change, I measured the temp at the defrost vents (cruising down the interstate) to be 150 degrees, while at the rear heater it was 180. I don't remember the exact outdoor temp (was two years ago) but it WAS cold-probably in the 20s.

I attributed the temp difference to 1) the long run to the front heater vs. the rear and 2) the fact that the rear heater is recirculating air while front is only drawing fresh.

While the heat isn't quite as hot as I would really like, it does do a fantastic job of defrosting the windshield. If that is your aim, then yes, it is worthwhile. The heat is enough to provide some comfort, too, though it would struggle if that is all you had.

The heat IS better mounted as it is now vs. when I took those temp measurements before, and air flow was also quite improved.

I previously tried a small generic marine heater. The Vanagon core is significantly better.

I feel like this pic makes it look bigger than it is (That's what she said?) but if it could be made to fit, I do think a Eurovan rear heater core would work even better. I bet it would fit in the space, though the splash pan might need modification.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293938044257?chn=ps&n...HwQAvD_BwE
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

Hometurbine.

I ran a 3" insulated round duct in place of the original piping and it runs next to the belly rad. As the duct is insulated, the rad fans don't affect it at all. I get good heat up front that easily defrosts the windshield as well as has kept the front area comfortable in 18F outside temps. I also piped the heater vent part of the Subaru heater unit into 1.5" hoses that come out under the rear speakers in the back seat so the back of the bus is reasonably warm too. As I am using the original Subaru heater A/C unit, it works for both heat as well as A/C but I haven't tried the A/C yet.

The hoses are about 3-4' long at most and as it is the same heater unit, the Subaru thermostat works as if it were still in the Subaru.

If I wanted to get really creative, I could use the transmission cooling ports off my belly rad with a 12v circulation pump and a small heater core unit tied into the defroster tree. I have an auto trans with an external oil cooler too so could add a heat exchanger instead of the rad oil cooler ports.
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Last edited by Shonandb on Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:52 pm; edited 3 times in total
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hometurbine
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

Great input from all of you, particularly the different options/approaches and cautions. And thanks for the pics/links.

Extra credit: does anyone know the specs of the Vanagon rear heater (BTU/CFM)?

Now off to digest and make a plan...

Thanks
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

just for reference, my Riviera has a propane forced-air heater that I believe is approx 18,500 BTU ... and it will cook you out of the damn Bus Smile (while driving)

so something even smaller should work ... i believe the Propex units the UK camper guys are obsessed with are only 6500 BTU ... for example
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

Metalhacker, thanks for those comparison figures.

I'd still like to know what the Vanagon rear heater specs are...

To continue the heater discussion...

1) Thermostat/overheating: I was a little confused on how adding cores/cooling would overheat the engine, but if I understand it, the opening of the radiator loop is controlled by the thermostat, which is governed by the flow through the heater core/s. So if the coolant coming off the top of the engine is say 180F and loses 10F through the cores, it will open the thermostat at say 170F. But if it the cores steal too much heat (say 30F delta) then the engine has to overheat to 210F to get to get the same temperature at the thermostat. So I think I get it. Either don't steal too much heat or get a lower temperature thermostat. I read that aftermarket thermostats aren't good in Subys. Does Suby have lower temperature ones (not that I'm considering this option)? On this quick link I see some racing ones that go from 170 to 155F...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/220540944313
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


2) Core Bypass valve: In Vee Dub Nut's build there is a good discussion on the heater setup he used. if you go slightly down the page he added a core bypass valve that is an interesting option.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=300

One possible use of this valve would be to only run coolant to front heater and then as don't need defrost, close it and have it only go to rear heater where it's happier (assuming one can get the front one hot enough).

I might a get Vanagon rear heater this weekend from a friend...that might be fun to start playing with...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

I've done two bay suby conversions that both got Maradyne brand heaters mounted under the nose plumbed into the original heater duct. Works well. I will see if I have any pics.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Watercooled Buses: Climate Control Reply with quote

hometurbine wrote:
Metalhacker, thanks for those comparison figures.

I'd still like to know what the Vanagon rear heater specs are...

To continue the heater discussion...

1) Thermostat/overheating: I was a little confused on how adding cores/cooling would overheat the engine, but if I understand it, the opening of the radiator loop is controlled by the thermostat, which is governed by the flow through the heater core/s. So if the coolant coming off the top of the engine is say 180F and loses 10F through the cores, it will open the thermostat at say 170F. But if it the cores steal too much heat (say 30F delta) then the engine has to overheat to 210F to get to get the same temperature at the thermostat. So I think I get it. Either don't steal too much heat or get a lower temperature thermostat. I read that aftermarket thermostats aren't good in Subys. Does Suby have lower temperature ones (not that I'm considering this option)? On this quick link I see some racing ones that go from 170 to 155F...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/220540944313
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


2) Core Bypass valve: In Vee Dub Nut's build there is a good discussion on the heater setup he used. if you go slightly down the page he added a core bypass valve that is an interesting option.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=300

One possible use of this valve would be to only run coolant to front heater and then as don't need defrost, close it and have it only go to rear heater where it's happier (assuming one can get the front one hot enough).

I might a get Vanagon rear heater this weekend from a friend...that might be fun to start playing with...


the issue is you are losing too much coolant temp with long heater runs.

look at the diagram. the heater return has to be 170* or above as the return pisses right on the tstat bulb

too cold and it will never open, hence the overheating. what you need to do is piss hot water from the crossover pipe back into the heater return. look up "tom shiels thermostat bypass"

http://subaruvanagon.com/tom/Thermostat%20housingk.htm

there are other ways to do this, but this was one way.
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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