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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
I would use the long/wide mouth pushrod tubes, and a deep sump with an extended pickup instead.
I'd use that crank assembly in a heartbeat, sure looks ready to go!  |
................................................................................................................thanks for all your input some thing to think about spencerfvee |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| Max Welton wrote: |
| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| Is a windage tray really necessary? |
My 1776 w/Berg CW crank would uncover the oil pickup under very mild driving until I put a 1.5qrt sump on it. Freaked me out first time it did it.
Max |
Interesting. I don't think I've heard of anyone saying this was an issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting your experience. Was it a "standard" counterweighted crank? Or did it have counterweights that were added? |
Hard cornering, or long freeway onramp/offramps with sweeping curves are enough on a stock engine to throw a pressure light for me 
I like to run sumps when I can.
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| Max Welton wrote: |
| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| Is a windage tray really necessary? |
My 1776 w/Berg CW crank would uncover the oil pickup under very mild driving until I put a 1.5qrt sump on it. Freaked me out first time it did it.
Max |
Interesting. I don't think I've heard of anyone saying this was an issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting your experience. Was it a "standard" counterweighted crank? Or did it have counterweights that were added? |
It's just an 8 dowel GB 188. Got it in 1999 I think. All it took to drop pressure was a gentle turn at maybe 40MPH and 2000 RPM. It was literally the maiden drive on that engine so I was ... concerned.
Max
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:13 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| Something that can help a Bug MPG is the long forgotten Harrod Helper. They say that simple little wing can help get 2 more MPG by breaking up the negative pressure following behind the Bug. |
Thanks to this comment I just spent all last night by starting on reading about the Herrod Helper, and that led me down the rabbit hole of aero threads over on Shop Talk Forums. Lots of very interesting stuff that's actually super easy to implement. It looks like on a street car the single biggest improvement is a Kamei style air dam (which I have a repro of, actually, ready to install) as far as stability and a small increase in fuel economy. Then after that is added, I think a Herrod Helper or the Fast Fab offering would be an interesting next step. The fast fab unit is from all reports lightweight and well made-
https://www.fastfabonline.com/Street-Wing_p_121.html
Alternatively, if going the DIY route it looks like brackets to mount the wing are easy enough to fabricate, and from what I've read the original Herrod Helper was a 4x36" piece of 18GA steel, with a ~20° bend in it. I bet a 4x36" piece of 12-14GA or so aluminum would be a good starting point for a DIY reproduction if you have metal laying about. I could easily make up some universal brackets with the aluminum angle I have on hand, I need to to mount my old school decklid rack anyway 
From the more advanced reading I did following it even further, it seems an even more effective location is actually at the top edge of the rear window. As far as drag reduction is concerned.
Or, one could start with a type 3 notch or a ghia, and avoid the aero issues with the beetle body shape entirely
I think I'll have to cobble something together for a Herrod inspired wing once I get my air dam on. Purists be damned!
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:37 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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This works just as well as the Herrod helper and is much cleaner, simpler and does not prevent air to enter the louvers.
The Kamei front spoiler is more about stability than fuel economy.
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stevemariott
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 1051
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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Wow! That is a handsome beetle!
| Alstrup wrote: |
This works just as well as the Herrod helper and is much
cleaner, simpler and does not prevent air to enter the louvers.
The Kamei front spoiler is more about stability than fuel economy. |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
This works just as well as the Herrod helper and is much cleaner, simpler and does not prevent air to enter the louvers.
The Kamei front spoiler is more about stability than fuel economy. |
....................................................................................................................thats one bad ass looking bug who is the lucky guy that owns it ?????? i would like to know more about the what kind of motor things like that please????spencerfvee |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| Max Welton wrote: |
| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| Is a windage tray really necessary? |
My 1776 w/Berg CW crank would uncover the oil pickup under very mild driving until I put a 1.5qrt sump on it. Freaked me out first time it did it.
Max |
Interesting. I don't think I've heard of anyone saying this was an issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting your experience. Was it a "standard" counterweighted crank? Or did it have counterweights that were added? |
Hard cornering, or long freeway onramp/offramps with sweeping curves are enough on a stock engine to throw a pressure light for me
I like to run sumps when I can. |
In this clip , the grey car has a counter weighted crank , the yellow one is stock German . both built by the same engine builder . Windage tray and only a tuna can sump extension . You will never be able to corner harder than one of these open wheelers . even that green beast Alstrup posted . They check their oil level either straight after turning off , or with the car idling . It works for them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R80EvaGBM4 |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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Slush plates and a tuna can works wonders.
I believe the green car belongs to a British fella. Canīt remember his name though. If memory serves it sports a 200 hp 2332 engine, but donīt quote me on that. I do not know the car in person.
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Wreck wrote: |
| Lingwendil wrote: |
| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| Max Welton wrote: |
| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| Is a windage tray really necessary? |
My 1776 w/Berg CW crank would uncover the oil pickup under very mild driving until I put a 1.5qrt sump on it. Freaked me out first time it did it.
Max |
Interesting. I don't think I've heard of anyone saying this was an issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting your experience. Was it a "standard" counterweighted crank? Or did it have counterweights that were added? |
Hard cornering, or long freeway onramp/offramps with sweeping curves are enough on a stock engine to throw a pressure light for me
I like to run sumps when I can. |
In this clip , the grey car has a counter weighted crank , the yellow one is stock German . both built by the same engine builder . Windage tray and only a tuna can sump extension . You will never be able to corner harder than one of these open wheelers . even that green beast Alstrup posted . They check their oil level either straight after turning off , or with the car idling . It works for them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R80EvaGBM4 |
.........can you tell more about the motors what carb are they running ?/ how big are the motors? it looks to me that the yellow car is faster with the stock crank . . i love open air cars . spencerfvee |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Slush plates and a tuna can works wonders.
I believe the green car belongs to a British fella. Canīt remember his name though. If memory serves it sports a 200 hp 2332 engine, but donīt quote me on that. I do not know the car in person. |
......................................................................................................................thanks alstrup . i ran a winage tray in my formula vee and and windage push rod tubes it worked i did not run a big oil pump spencerfvee |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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u
pdate i just cut my heads for a little over 8.1/2 to one cr. . i all so bought a set of alum bolt on valve covers in case i need to vent the valve covers .i all so bought a set of vw air tins for under the cyl. heads i have had good luck with them over the years i allso bought a set ofSS windagr push rod tubes as of to date i have spent $3,165.00 on this motor build . i have to add i have no labor bill because i do al the work my self i do have help from a good friend spencerfvee |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Witnin01340
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2021
Posts: 131
Location: PA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| I never built a milage motor but built lots of vw type1 engines for offrd buggys but the crank shown has the main seal on the crank,hopfully it was"nt balanced like that, because the main seal sits in the case, the weight of the seal does not sit on the crank so whatever the seal weighs it may be off balance by that much unless it was installed after balancing. |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Witnin01340 wrote: |
| I never built a milage motor but built lots of vw type1 engines for offrd buggys but the crank shown has the main seal on the crank,hopfully it was"nt balanced like that, because the main seal sits in the case, the weight of the seal does not sit on the crank so whatever the seal weighs it may be off balance by that much unless it was installed after balancing. |
............................................................................................................................90 % of the motors i build are for pipe buggies 10% street cars . no no on the rear seal being on the crank . that motor was mocked up and i later took the motor apart .i wanted to keep every thing to gather fly wheel rods and crank and i put a 82mm crank in the case it came out of lol lol spencerfvee |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
Something about a set of fresh clean shiny pushrod tubes is just so handsome 
What car is this going in? |
...........................................................................................................i have to buy a car in the spring i have 3 people that have vw bugs for sale when i want to buy one .i wanted to spend the money on the motor first . my grand pa who was a cow boy all his life and never drove a car. road a horse to town all his life. said to me son dont by the cart first get the horse first then the cart lol lol  he was funny but he was right spencerfvee |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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I would like to see you... ride an engine down the street 
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Chickensoup wrote: |
| I would like to see you... ride an engine down the street |
.......................................................................................................yes grass hopper it can be done. lol but i am building the motor first. its really no big deal to me . because its going to take till may to build it and run it on the motor stand . i have parts on order things take time . spencerfvee |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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1580cc , stock heads 040's 311 's etc . empi's. no porting , 3 angle valve cut , stock intake with a 29mm restrictor plate under the 34pict . Stock pistons with a minimum weight .
light flywheel , but the combined mass of the flywheel and crank and clutch must be the same . i.e counterweighted crank can run a lighter flywheel .
cam is a regulation one , I was told it was a variation of a 1500s cam .
0.377" lift maximum on the intake and 0.362" on the exhaust .
Must have a cooling system fitted but the generator doesn't need to charge .
header is free and a lot of work is done there .
They would make a great little bug engine and I think they would get really good fuel milage because a lot of power comes from friction reduction .
https://www.motorsport.org.au/docs/default-source/...736f210b_5 |
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