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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Wreck wrote: |
1580cc , stock heads 040's 311 's etc . empi's. no porting , 3 angle valve cut , stock intake with a 29mm restrictor plate under the 34pict . Stock pistons with a minimum weight .
light flywheel , but the combined mass of the flywheel and crank and clutch must be the same . i.e counterweighted crank can run a lighter flywheel .
cam is a regulation one , I was told it was a variation of a 1500s cam .
0.377" lift maximum on the intake and 0.362" on the exhaust .
Must have a cooling system fitted but the generator doesn't need to charge .
header is free and a lot of work is done there .
They would make a great little bug engine and I think they would get really good fuel milage because a lot of power comes from friction reduction .
https://www.motorsport.org.au/docs/default-source/...736f210b_5 |
....................................................................................................................i like your build i to think it will do well on mpg good luck spencerfvee |
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Floating VW
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Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1597
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:52 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
| . . .can you tell me why a vac only dizy gets great mpg for the vw bug i would like to try a all vac dizy with my test 30pict 1 carb. |
Lean air/fuel ratios are excellent for fuel efficiency, but take a lot longer to burn. To take full advantage of a lean and efficient 15 or 16:1 air/fuel ratio at light cruise, you may need 40 to 45 degrees of timing advance. A mechanical-advance only distributor can get you to about 32 degrees of total advance, which is not sufficient. You need a distributor that has a vacuum-assisted advance to get you the rest of the way.
| spencerfvee wrote: |
| . . . your right about using alum. push rods . and straight cut gears . . i thought of using a stock cam . but went with a engle w 90 cam because it has 265deg.duration. and has less lift than other cheater cams. some of my best street motors ran super well using a cam with 265 duration . but i am rethinking on using a stock cam . . . |
Yeah, what I meant by a stock cam grind was low lift, which the W-90 definitely has. You should be good there. Although, it has an intake closing angle that is about 10 degrees later than a stock cam, so I imagine you will want to increase your static compression to compensate for that. I think you said you were shooting for 8.5 to 1; I didn't crunch the numbers so I don't know if that is good enough, but it sounds about right.
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:11 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
| Lean air/fuel ratios are excellent for fuel efficiency, but take a lot longer to burn. To take full advantage of a lean and efficient 15 or 16:1 air/fuel ratio at light cruise, you may need 40 to 45 degrees of timing advance. A mechanical-advance only distributor can get you to about 32 degrees of total advance, which is not sufficient. You need a distributor that has a vacuum-assisted advance to get you the rest of the way. |
I think a lot of people who worry about lean mixtures forget (or don't know) about the necessary timing to make it work.
Max
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
| spencerfvee wrote: |
| . . .can you tell me why a vac only dizy gets great mpg for the vw bug i would like to try a all vac dizy with my test 30pict 1 carb. |
Lean air/fuel ratios are excellent for fuel efficiency, but take a lot longer to burn. To take full advantage of a lean and efficient 15 or 16:1 air/fuel ratio at light cruise, you may need 40 to 45 degrees of timing advance. A mechanical-advance only distributor can get you to about 32 degrees of total advance, which is not sufficient. You need a distributor that has a vacuum-assisted advance to get you the rest of the way.
| spencerfvee wrote: |
| . . . your right about using alum. push rods . and straight cut gears . . i thought of using a stock cam . but went with a engle w 90 cam because it has 265deg.duration. and has less lift than other cheater cams. some of my best street motors ran super well using a cam with 265 duration . but i am rethinking on using a stock cam . . . |
Yeah, what I meant by a stock cam grind was low lift, which the W-90 definitely has. You should be good there. Although, it has an intake closing angle that is about 10 degrees later than a stock cam, so I imagine you will want to increase your static compression to compensate for that. I think you said you were shooting for 8.5 to 1; I didn't crunch the numbers so I don't know if that is good enough, but it sounds about right. |
....................................................................................................................after building and racing vws since 1969 when i though a new a lot about vw motors .i found out i did not lol . thanks to people that posted
on this forum i have learned more about what makes a vw perform better .mpg not so much on how much HP. one can get.like when one builds a all out drag race or all out street motor . i have learned you have to pick the right parts .to do the job for all out mpg.. when i think back to the 1960s and 1970s most vw sales were to guys wanting a good work car to go to there jobs the big cars like fords chevys and other big cars bad mpg form about 14 mpg to 21mpg .they were gas hogs but no one cared because gas was from 40cents to 55 cent a gal. in 1969. i would fill my vw bug up with gas for $4.00 to $5.00 . back then if your car had over 50,000 miles on it. it was time to trad it in on a new or low milage used car . here in ohio a car would start to rust out .after 3years from the salt on the roads . . i had a brand new 71 pont.t37 455HO 4 speed light weight car that i drag races and drove on the street it got only 14 mpg. but what a ride lol . i never drove it in the winter . i all way drove a vw bug in the winter . oh my god one could by a used vw bug for $500.00 to $700.oo in the 60s a lot of vw bugs got junked because they rusted out .even today in ohio i see a lot of bugs for sale that are rusted out . sorry about the long story spencerfvee |
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Janne71
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Joined: September 29, 2015
Posts: 127
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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Hallo
It’s very good to read about this engine building
But I have a quest about efficiency on fuel. Is it better with tighter deck or higher cr for best efficiency and mpg or is it just a combo’s of both
If how’s to think. The fuel is blended with ethanol this days
//Jan |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Janne71 wrote: |
Hallo
It’s very good to read about this engine building
But I have a quest about efficiency on fuel. Is it better with tighter deck or higher cr for best efficiency and mpg or is it just a combo’s of both
If how’s to think. The fuel is blended with ethanol this days
//Jan |
................................................................................................................hi from USA ohio to sweden hi jan .reading some of the mpg builds they say there motors use a tight deck for better MPG . my self i run a 40 to 45 thousand deck i am running a little over 8.1/2 to one cr yes both tight deak and higher CR both work to gether for better mpg . . because my single port heads you cant cut to deep for CR.with a 90.5 cyls. in would make the head weak and to thin . as for gas i use RV gas it has no ethanol . its for old camper motor homes to use . its $4oo. a gal. i like it . i am sure other people on here will have some thing to say about CR and tight deck . spencerfvee |
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Witnin01340
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2021
Posts: 131
Location: PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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I remember back in the late 70s guys would put low tension rings in, these where v8s though, not sure if low tension rings was ever made for a type1.
Thats good , i know a guy that got a crank assembly balanced with the main seal on the crank,he didnt know it was not supose be off and the balancer was a all around balancer not just vw guy so he balanced it,when he got it rebalanced it was all over off balance,thats why i posted just in case it was balanced with seal on.
The way it looks your on the right track for a great milage motor,good luck with it. |
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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I doubt the flywheel was balanced with the seal on it, but even if it was it would be no problem. Not enough mass to matter.
If you had a problem it was probably because they did not have the flywheel mounted straight and fully torqued when balanced. Or because the pressure plate was off center. |
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Witnin01340
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2021
Posts: 131
Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:22 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| The main seal weighs 40 to 42 grams, imo thats alot when balancing it would be wobbling etc,the guy brought the crank assembly to me to build his engine so i ask him if he put the seal on he said yes to get it balanced and the balancer either didnt know or didnt care this was over 20yrs ago so i dont remember it all but yeah they did balance it with seal on and when they rebalanced it,it was off balance,maybe the pressure plate was slighltly moved and made if off balance but 40-42 grams is alot imo |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:48 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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update vw fuel pumps . some times a vw fuel pump can put out fuel pressure as high as 9lbs not good for mpg ,, one must be care full when buying a fuel pump, i stay a way from pumps made in china . all so stay a way from pumps that have ( NO C .CLIPS ) that hold the fuel pump rod or pin in place that the fuel pump arm rides on. i lost a drag race at the track be cause the rod or pin came out of the fuel pump and then i lost fuel pressure . see photo with my brosol fuel new pump that has the C clips . . the last thing you want is that to happen when your 30miles from home on a free way sitting on the side of the road . i like the brand called brosol its made in brazil . i all way check the fuel pressure when i put a new fuel pump on my motors .. the number one thing people do is not to check the fuel pressure when they install a new fuel pump. i feal that to high of a fuel pressure will hurt mpg . spencerfvee
Last edited by spencerfvee on Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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Bocar pumps also use c clips.
Theyre not rebuild-able tho. at least not easily.
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-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Chickensoup wrote: |
Bocar pumps also use c clips.
Theyre not rebuild-able tho. at least not easily. |
.....................................................................................................................thanks chickensoup i for got bocar has c clips spencerfvee |
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FreeBug
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Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 4278
Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:06 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Wreck wrote: |
| cam is a regulation one , I was told it was a variation on the 1500 S cam |
The 1500S, the 1500, 1600 and 1300 all have the same cam, whether in type 1, 2, or 3.
Only the 1200 has a different cam (in modern production). I think the early 1100-1200s might have different cams, though, I don't know. Different lifters, in any case, that's for sure. |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:36 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| FreeBug wrote: |
| Wreck wrote: |
| cam is a regulation one , I was told it was a variation on the 1500 S cam |
The 1500S, the 1500, 1600 and 1300 all have the same cam, whether in type 1, 2, or 3.
Only the 1200 has a different cam (in modern production). I think the early 1100-1200s might have different cams, though, I don't know. Different lifters, in any case, that's for sure. |
..................................................................................................................your right on the 1300 1500 and 1600 having the same cam the intake valves on a stock vw motor open at 7.537 and close at0.322 the exhaust opens at 44.5-4 and closes at 0.310 the duration for intake is 224 the duration for exhaust is 228 and has 290 inch lift at cam .with 1.1:1 rockers arms total lift of 0,322 my w90 engle cam on itake and exhaust is 327 lift at cam the intake opens at 4 and closes at 40 the exhaust closes at 4 and opens at 40 total gross cam lift is 297 with 1.1:1 rokers is 297 .lobe centers 108 thats why i picked the engle w 90 cam very close to a stock vw cam spencerfvee |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:54 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| FreeBug wrote: |
| Wreck wrote: |
| cam is a regulation one , I was told it was a variation on the 1500 S cam |
The 1500S, the 1500, 1600 and 1300 all have the same cam, whether in type 1, 2, or 3.
Only the 1200 has a different cam (in modern production). I think the early 1100-1200s might have different cams, though, I don't know. Different lifters, in any case, that's for sure. |
I've no real idea on that , just going off what I was told . I found the vee cam specks , very similar to webcams numbers for a stock cam .
Lsa 107 (webcam 108)
214 degrees at 0.050" (webcam same)
virtually identical cam timing .
I makes it even more impressive the HP numbers they get out of them ! |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:01 am Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| Wreck wrote: |
| FreeBug wrote: |
| Wreck wrote: |
| cam is a regulation one , I was told it was a variation on the 1500 S cam |
The 1500S, the 1500, 1600 and 1300 all have the same cam, whether in type 1, 2, or 3.
Only the 1200 has a different cam (in modern production). I think the early 1100-1200s might have different cams, though, I don't know. Different lifters, in any case, that's for sure. |
I've no real idea on that , just going off what I was told . I found the vee cam specks , very similar to webcams numbers for a stock cam .
Lsa 107 (webcam 108)
214 degrees at 0.050" (webcam same)
virtually identical cam timing .
I makes it even more impressive the HP numbers they get out of them ! |
.......................................................................................................on the vw stock cams that i posted above were taken at 0.040 the engle cam was taken at .050 spencerfvee |
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1597
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
| . . . i all way check the fuel pressure when i put a new fuel pump on my motors .. the number one thing people do is not to check the fuel pressure when they install a new fuel pump. i feal that to high of a fuel pressure will hurt mpg . spencerfvee |
When I was giving mine it's initial shakedown, I couldn't get any better than 25 mpg. My fuel pump was putting out close to 5 psi at the time (high, but I didn't think high enough to overload the needle valves in my Darla twins). I finally got around to installing a quality pressure regulator, dropping the pressure from 5 psi to a constant 2.75 psi. MPG's immediately went from 25 to 35 with just that one change.
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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update i just got my high-performance stock 1.1:1 rocker kit .the kit came with ball foot swivel valve adjustters . i am sure. i am going to catch hell over saying this about ball foot swivel valve adjusters . there junk. i hate them .they break there a pain in the ass. thats all i am going to say about them .if you want to run them in your motor more power to you. the shop i used to work at . i saw so many motors come in with broken ball foot adjusters and the other type called swivel feet adjusters there junk too .for stock motors i like the stock valve adjustment screws for high performance motors buy the good high-ratio forged rockers like bug pack used to sell you can still buy them from empi or pauter machine billet roller rockers. we ran a set of pauter rockers for 15 years ok i am setting up my heads for the new rockers i bought like a said i like to use the stock valve adjustment screw type they work rea nice on a stock motor vw ran them for years ... every one builds there motor the way they want to i am sure some guys are going to say how great the swivel adjusters are . thats fine with me just my two cents take it or leave it spencerfvee
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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They break because people throw them onto stock rockers and don't set up valve geo properly. Mazda and Ford used them with lots of success.
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-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: stock mpg motor build counter-weighted crank or stock crank |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
| update i just got my high-performance stock 1.1:1 rocker kit .the kit came with ball foot swivel valve adjustters . i am sure. i am going to catch hell over saying this about ball foot swivel valve adjusters . there junk. i hate them .they break there a pain in the ass. |
I totally agree.
I toss them, if anyone wants some, PM me and you can have them for the cost of shipping.
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74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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