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Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:16 pm Post subject: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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Can I get by with new heads?
My Westy has been running like crap lately…thought it had to do with running out of gas this past summer. Thought it was a fuel injection fault or something like that. Today, I brought it to Precision Motor Car here in Portland, and got the bad news that #2 has zero compression and so I was running off 3 cylinders. No wonder my gas mileage was so bad and it couldn’t climb an anthill!!
Well, Darrell and Trevor don’t do partial engine work, so my option with them is put a new GoWesty motor or a used Subaru motor. I’m looking at $15k for GW, or $18k with a 60-80k mile used Sub engine. Part of the expense is that for all engine re-dos, they insist on SS coolant pipes, new radiator, along with new hoses throughout that aren’t part of the engine purchase.
For more background info, about a year and a half ago, I did a tune-up using the GW tube up kit. When I was putting in the new spark plugs, I stripped the threads on the head of one of the spark plug ports (thought it was the forward pax side…which is #1, but I might be misremembering). I bought a tap-in re-thread kit from Autozone, and it seemed to work fine for the entire time until that day of running out of gas (hence that’s why I assumed it was fuel issue). Anyways, at that time, I was told I would need new heads or that I can try the thread kit.
Is it still possible or recommended to replace the heads instead of doing a motor swap? If so, who would you recommend that does partial engine rebuilds?
TIA! _________________ 1987 Westy, Dove Blue
1987 Wolfsburg Tintop, Vesuvius Grey no more
1977 Toyota FJ40, Freeborn Red
2018 Ford F-350 Platinum, Ruby Red Metallic
2017 Mercedes GLE350, Polar White
Last edited by Ride-Fly on Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4765 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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Ride-Fly wrote: |
Well, Darryl and Trevor don’t do partial engine work,....Part of the expense is that for all engine re-dos, they insist on SS coolant pipes, new radiator, along with new hoses throughout that aren’t part of the engine purchase.
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these mechanics are doing EXACTLY the right thing with the cooling system refurb. they are ensuring their work stays cool and healthy and these costs should be part of any engine re-do, or just do. 40 year old cooling systems need love. and cash.
if the van is still at these mechanics, pay them to do a leak down test to pinpoint where the compression is being lost. if the compression is going out the valves, it would make economic sense to just replace the head.
one thing to consider, if your van sat for a while before you drove it, fuel can leave a varnish on the intake valve stem that holds the valve open, dumping all your compression. there's ways to soften the varnish if that is the case but it can be amazingly difficult to remove. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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dabaron Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018 Posts: 2559 Location: Philly, mang
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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do you want to spend $20,000.00 on an engine? do you have the skills to remove and install replacement heads? _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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dabaron wrote: |
do you want to spend $20,000.00 on an engine? do you have the skills to remove and install replacement heads? |
That’s a hard No! I have no skills and mechanical acumen!
I love my vans so I’m thinking I’m going to go ahead with the Subie swap. Just a tough, huge pill to swallow! _________________ 1987 Westy, Dove Blue
1987 Wolfsburg Tintop, Vesuvius Grey no more
1977 Toyota FJ40, Freeborn Red
2018 Ford F-350 Platinum, Ruby Red Metallic
2017 Mercedes GLE350, Polar White |
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Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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DanHoug wrote: |
Ride-Fly wrote: |
Well, Darrell and Trevor don’t do partial engine work,....Part of the expense is that for all engine re-dos, they insist on SS coolant pipes, new radiator, along with new hoses throughout that aren’t part of the engine purchase.
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these mechanics are doing EXACTLY the right thing with the cooling system refurb. they are ensuring their work stays cool and healthy and these costs should be part of any engine re-do, or just do. 40 year old cooling systems need love. and cash.
if the van is still at these mechanics, pay them to do a leak down test to pinpoint where the compression is being lost. if the compression is going out the valves, it would make economic sense to just replace the head.
one thing to consider, if your van sat for a while before you drove it, fuel can leave a varnish on the intake valve stem that holds the valve open, dumping all your compression. there's ways to soften the varnish if that is the case but it can be amazingly difficult to remove. |
Yep, I trust Darrell and Trevor. They are solid, straight up dudes. The problem is that even if I decided to do the full swap, he wouldn’t be able to get to it till July or august. Vanaroo is behind in their subie swap kit, and Darrell says theirs is hands down the best on the market.
I wish I had read your reply earlier when they still had it - would’ve asked for the leak down test. My Westy is used semi-regularly as it’s my “airport car”. It’s driven 3-4 times a month about 40 miles RT so can rule out the fuel varnish. _________________ 1987 Westy, Dove Blue
1987 Wolfsburg Tintop, Vesuvius Grey no more
1977 Toyota FJ40, Freeborn Red
2018 Ford F-350 Platinum, Ruby Red Metallic
2017 Mercedes GLE350, Polar White |
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lcolon Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2006 Posts: 57 Location: SF Bay Area
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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You could have a burned valve that is allowing the compression to escape. I agree that it is worth the leak down test to identify where the compression is going. If your oil pressure is good and compression on the other cylinders acceptable, definitely way cheaper just to fix the head.
Do you have an air compressor at home? (the kind that can run tools) If so, a leak down tester is not that expensive and easy to use. _________________ 1984 Vanagon Westfalia - Vanna
1971 VW Beetle |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32571 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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My 2 cents?
You drive 160 miles a month.
Spending $15-20,000 for that short ride is nuts! (Unless you are obsessed with the Van) IMHO
Recognize I come from a DIY perspective so everything I do is 1/2 - 1/3 (or less) of what you spend.
However, it is worth checking out more to see exactly where you stand.
Go back to a mechanic and ask for three things, one you may already have in hand......
A compression test for all four cylinders.
Both a dry test (just as the unit sits, pull the plugs and test)
And
A Wet test (oil is squirted into the cylinder before running the test, it temporarily seals the rings)
A cylinder leakage test.
This will identify a % of air lost in the combustion chamber.
The air will predominantly exit the cylinder ......
Past the rings (comes out of the oil fill cap)
Past the valves (comes out the intake manifold OR comes out of the tail pipe)
Out of the radiator (comes out fill cap, this is rare on a WBX engine)
An oil pressure test.
Oil pressure when cold, first started in the morning.
Oil Pressure at normal operating temperature (10-15 minutes of driving) both at idle and at 3,000 rpm's.
With this information in hand, you now KNOW your problem and how to fix it.
You can then begin to plan the best way forward.
For us DIY'ers we haven't spent a penny on these tests. For you? $300-$500 probably.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6829 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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Do what Djkeev said, a leak down test is the way to define your $$$ problem and maybe make it a $ fix. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.
Last edited by Steve M. on Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50334
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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Check with a place like small car that does Subaru swaps and see if they have a good used engine lying about. I paid $500 for the used 2.1 engine I picked up there. I did the install myself, but a shop should be able to do it for you for a $1000 or so.
Yes you should check to see if you have a valve hanging up from the effects of running ethanol lace fuel. The problem is real. You could add a quart of synthetic motor oil or 2 cycle oil to a half tank or more of gas and run the engine a while to wet the cylinders and valve stems well and then pull the rocker arms and use a hammer and brass punch to try and get any valves that are stuck open to move. |
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Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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djkeev wrote: |
My 2 cents?
You drive 160 miles a month.
Spending $15-20,000 for that short ride is nuts! (Unless you are obsessed with the Van) IMHO
Recognize I come from a DIY perspective so everything I do is 1/2 - 1/3 (or less) of what you spend.
However, it is worth checking out more to see exactly where you stand.
Go back to a mechanic and ask for three things, one you may already have in hand......
A compression test for all four cylinders.
Both a dry test (just as the unit sits, pull the plugs and test)
And
A Wet test (oil is squirted into the cylinder before running the test, it temporarily seals the rings)
A cylinder leakage test.
This will identify a % of air lost in the combustion chamber.
The air will predominantly exit the cylinder ......
Past the rings (comes out of the oil fill cap)
Past the valves (comes out the intake manifold OR comes out of the tail pipe)
Out of the radiator (comes out fill cap, this is rare on a WBX engine)
An oil pressure test.
Oil pressure when cold, first started in the morning.
Oil Pressure at normal operating temperature (10-15 minutes of driving) both at idle and at 3,000 rpm's.
With this information in hand, you now KNOW your problem and how to fix it.
You can then begin to plan the best way forward.
For us DIY'ers we haven't spent a penny on these tests. For you? $300-$500 probably.
Dave |
Awesome info Dave! Thanks. While I drive my Westy as an airport car, I usually do a long trip once or twice a year. Places like Yellowstone, Orcas Island, or Carlsbad, CA, as well as some local closer-in camping trips a few times a year. _________________ 1987 Westy, Dove Blue
1987 Wolfsburg Tintop, Vesuvius Grey no more
1977 Toyota FJ40, Freeborn Red
2018 Ford F-350 Platinum, Ruby Red Metallic
2017 Mercedes GLE350, Polar White |
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Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Check with a place like small car that does Subaru swaps and see if they have a good used engine lying about. I paid $500 for the used 2.1 engine I picked up there. I did the install myself, but a shop should be able to do it for you for a $1000 or so.
Yes you should check to see if you have a valve hanging up from the effects of running ethanol lace fuel. The problem is real. You could add a quart of synthetic motor oil or 2 cycle oil to a half tank or more of gas and run the engine a while to wet the cylinders and valve stems well and then pull the rocker arms and use a hammer and brass punch to try and get any valves that are stuck open to move. |
That’s a great idea! I’ll start making some calls! _________________ 1987 Westy, Dove Blue
1987 Wolfsburg Tintop, Vesuvius Grey no more
1977 Toyota FJ40, Freeborn Red
2018 Ford F-350 Platinum, Ruby Red Metallic
2017 Mercedes GLE350, Polar White |
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Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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lcolon wrote: |
You could have a burned valve that is allowing the compression to escape. I agree that it is worth the leak down test to identify where the compression is going. If your oil pressure is good and compression on the other cylinders acceptable, definitely way cheaper just to fix the head.
Do you have an air compressor at home? (the kind that can run tools) If so, a leak down tester is not that expensive and easy to use. |
I do have a cheap compression tester from HoBo Freight, but don’t have an air compressor. But I’ve been thinking of buying one for awhile now so this might be the catalyst to do so. Thanks! _________________ 1987 Westy, Dove Blue
1987 Wolfsburg Tintop, Vesuvius Grey no more
1977 Toyota FJ40, Freeborn Red
2018 Ford F-350 Platinum, Ruby Red Metallic
2017 Mercedes GLE350, Polar White |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32571 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32571 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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Wildthings wrote: |
a valve hanging up from the effects of running ethanol lace fuel. The problem is real. |
99.9% of the Vanagons out there have been running on ethanol laced fuel since George Bush Sr made the deal with the corn lobby 30 years ago.
Just sayin’😎
Agreed on tapping valves with a (wood block).
But ya gotta know what to listen for.
Compare to “how other 7 valves slam shut”.
I highly doubt this is it. Another 99.9% unlikely. There’s that .01%……
Beat the bushes for a good running WBX from someone who converted —- is a good plan. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50334
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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Sodo wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
a valve hanging up from the effects of running ethanol lace fuel. The problem is real. |
99.9% of the Vanagons out there have been running on ethanol laced fuel since George Bush Sr made the deal with the corn lobby 30 years ago.
Just sayin’😎 |
Had a neighbor whose business was working on speed boats, he only dealt with maybe 10 wasted engines a year due to ethanol. All of the rest of the several hundred boats he serviced didn't have a problem, so it can't be real, right? |
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bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4348 Location: United States, Iowa
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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Huh... here in CornIowa, I can find 100% gasoline at most filling stations. Call around in your area, the growing trend is to have Recreational Vehicle (RV) gasoline, which is all gas no ethanol. Quads, dirt bikes, side-by-side 4X4 things made by Polaris, Yamaha, etc. use that kind of gas. Also, if you really want to remove the alcohol, you actually CAN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onCG7mIprfE _________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50334
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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bobbyblack wrote: |
Huh... here in CornIowa, I can find 100% gasoline at most filling stations. Call around in your area, the growing trend is to have Recreational Vehicle (RV) gasoline, which is all gas no ethanol. Quads, dirt bikes, side-by-side 4X4 things made by Polaris, Yamaha, etc. use that kind of gas. Also, if you really want to remove the alcohol, you actually CAN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onCG7mIprfE |
That is because Iowa (and the rest of the corn states) forces the ethanol crap on the rest of us through their undue leverage in congress, while refusing to use it themselves. Where we winter the surest way to eliminate the effects of ethanol without going to too much effort is to illegally mix in 20% or so of avgas. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50334
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Crap! #2 has Zero compression. Maybe need new motor or… |
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bobbyblack wrote: |
Huh... here in CornIowa, I can find 100% gasoline at most filling stations. Call around in your area, the growing trend is to have Recreational Vehicle (RV) gasoline, which is all gas no ethanol. Quads, dirt bikes, side-by-side 4X4 things made by Polaris, Yamaha, etc. use that kind of gas. Also, if you really want to remove the alcohol, you actually CAN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onCG7mIprfE |
That is because Iowa (and the rest of the corn states) forces the ethanol crap on the rest of us through their undue leverage in congress, while refusing to use it themselves. Where we winter the surest way to eliminate the effects of ethanol without going to extremes is to illegally mix in 20% or so of avgas. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32571 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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