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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Hey Bill -- Thanks for the tips, I'll take a look through the vacuum lines again. That's a good point, the D-Jet is very, very picky with vacuum. I only had the A/C on briefly, and I know what you mean by that boat anchor reaction. The clearest way I can think of to describe the situation is as if the fuel injectors are hooked up to a dimmer switch (like on a chandelier). When I'm holding the gas pedal steady at say 65 MPH, it feels as though someone is turning the 'dimmer' up and down causing the engine to gently slow down and speed up again. It's very different from a hesitation or miss - where the car briefly bucks. This engine oscillation I'm experiencing is quite smooth. It immediately disappears if I accelerate.
Would bad/worn contacts on the TPS cause this? I followed the section on this forum to install and calibrate it - so it would be strange for it to fail so quickly. But, anything is possible. Hopefully, my description of the issue makes sense. It's tricky to explain without you driving it, but it's very noticeable between 55-65MPH. It doesn't really happen above or below those speeds.
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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ClassicCamper
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Here's a snippet from my longest T4 journey yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HqQotZ-Klc
Plus... a good omen as I'm rolling back into my neighborhood:
And it's official We made it back safely and it ran really well. Now, she's tucked safely away until our next adventure.
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
Last edited by ClassicCamper on Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| ClassicCamper wrote: |
Hey Bill -- Thanks for the tips, I'll take a look through the vacuum lines again. That's a good point, the D-Jet is very, very picky with vacuum. I only had the A/C on briefly, and I know what you mean by that boat anchor reaction. The clearest way I can think of to describe the situation is as if the fuel injectors are hooked up to a dimmer switch (like on a chandelier). When I'm holding the gas pedal steady at say 65 MPH, it feels as though someone is turning the 'dimmer' up and down causing the engine to gently slow down and speed up again. It's very different from a hesitation or miss - where the car briefly bucks. This engine oscillation I'm experiencing is quite smooth. It immediately disappears if I accelerate.
Would bad/worn contacts on the TPS cause this? I followed the section on this forum to install and calibrate it - so it would be strange for it to fail so quickly. But, anything is possible. Hopefully, my description of the issue makes sense. It's tricky to explain without you driving it, but it's very noticeable between 55-65MPH. It doesn't really happen above or below those speeds. |
Ok....what you are speaking of.....having an effect at rock steady "part throttle" cruising speed.....of a very momentary loss of injection...just like a switch being flipped rapidly.....is caused by several things.
1. The TVS being not correctly adjusted or....being out of spec.
By out of spec I mean ...made that way. Some of the late build date switches like late 1980's had this problem. The issue is that the on/off poles on each side of the forked switch are a few thousandths too far apart. A molding issue.
It means when the throttle is in just the right position....the forked switch is not definitively in either position (on or off) very tightly. Excessive vibration or hard bumps can seperate the forked switch from the "on" pole. While this is not the same as shutting the fuel off...it acts the same. The switch must always be 100% in one position or the other...either on or off.
The other issue is very fine adjustment is needed and what's in the book does not cut it.
If you have not read this....do so.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683230&highlight=tvs
All of the above is ONLY helpful if its the TVS that is doing this. But you should do a detailed adjustment to make sure its not the TVS.
2. This can happen if there is a major ground point loose. Depending on how your wiring is set up....some models had individual ground wires running from each injector to the main ground point under the air distributor. Some had them in pairs.
In the paired injector grounds...when teh vibration from the engine is just right....and the connection at the ground point not good....it can kick out a pair of injectors in one shot.
3. This one is a BIG and VERY common cause of this problem. Check the three pin plug at the distributor.
If either of the two side pins are loose or corroded it can cause this effect...and the fit of the plug in the socket being tight means nothing....its about how tight the female connectors in the plug are. If either the eft r right wires are loose it kicks out a PAIR of injectors.
And....if the center pin female connector has poor connection...it kills all FOUR injectors when it rattles.
4. Anther VERY common cause of this is the breaker plate in the distributor. It has a ground braid spot welded to it. If that braid is corroded or heavily frayed....it can break ground connection as the vacuum advance moves. It can be maddening to track down.
5. It can simply be losing power at the system relay that feeds the ECU of fuel pump....but more common on the relay that feeds the ECU. Check the female connectors for tightness and some of them had a ground wire going to teh mounting screw that must be tight and on good ground.
Ray |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| Quote: |
| Ok....what you are speaking of.....having an effect at rock steady "part throttle" cruising speed.....of a very momentary loss of injection...just like a switch being flipped rapidly.....is caused by several things. |
Thanks Ray, I'm just making sure we are on the same page...what I'm experiencing is that the car is slowing down and speeding up (smoothly) at rock steady "part idle". It doesn't feel like a switch is being flipped rapidly, it's more of a very steady and smooth decel/accel.
I think we are talking about the same thing, but I want to double check, as I'm going to jump on this tomorrow.
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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LOL! The biggest mystery of them all! How did you manage to get the odometer and trip to sync up like that?
Bill |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| The biggest mystery of them all! How did you manage to get the odometer and trip to sync up like that |
Ha! Once the odometer hit 1,000, I just 0'd out the trip meter. Rolling into my neighborhood after this trip at 412 was just a coincidence.
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:49 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| ClassicCamper wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Ok....what you are speaking of.....having an effect at rock steady "part throttle" cruising speed.....of a very momentary loss of injection...just like a switch being flipped rapidly.....is caused by several things. |
Thanks Ray, I'm just making sure we are on the same page...what I'm experiencing is that the car is slowing down and speeding up (smoothly) at rock steady "part idle". It doesn't feel like a switch is being flipped rapidly, it's more of a very steady and smooth decel/accel.
I think we are talking about the same thing, but I want to double check, as I'm going to jump on this tomorrow. |
Damn.....somehow I got the polar opposite! 
Lets do some exploring. This is also not uncommon on very well tuned D-jet engines in type 4.
But I did not immediately go there because most owners D-jet fed engines in type 3 or 4 cars are not usually tuned well enough or much better than stock.....to have this happen (from my experience).
Its mostly common at highway speeds....rpm being the factor.....where it seems to want to accelerate on a slow curve. The best way I can describe it.....and you would to have driven enough 70s and 80s cars enough know what I mean.....It kind of feels like an 80s car with cruise control that is not that effective at steady state driving.
And.....most of the cruise control back then was fully controlled by a vacuum cannister....and sometimes later.....was kept steady with a vacuum pump. This thought process is key because OUR engines are controlled by vacuum as well! 😉
Ok. Lets say for the sake of setting the stage for thinking through this.....that your foot on the pedal IS rock hard steady with no variation whatsoever.
That 100% removes the TVS from the picture .....for the moment. Also by definition.....for the most part.....the TS-1 and TS-2 are not in the equation. For the most part....for the moment. 
Lets assume ts-1 and 2 are in correct spec.
Lets assume outside air temperature is stable (TS-1) and lets assume the engine is fully warmed (TS-2).
Lets assume you are on level highway.
So......there are three main things that could change that could cause a type 4 D-jet at fixed throttle....to throttle up and down.....in a slow submarine effect.
A slow oscillating change to fuel mixture. It could be rich or lean. Things that can cause this.....
1. Fuel pressure can be rising or falling.....or even just incorrect.
Meaning.....fuel pressure may be rising higher than the stock setting and slowly dropping back to stock (rich)....which will usually slowly drop rpm if there is not any throttle movement to add extra air to it. This increases vacuum....slowly....which the MPS reacts to....leaning it back out so rpm rises.
Or the fuel pressure could be dipping below stock causing excessive lean....rising rpm...and MPS correcting in the opposite direction.
Things that could cause the above conditions:
A worn fuel pressure regulator and its high speed harmonic at the meteriny plate.
A harmonic at the pump caused by the pancake dampener missing.
An alternating clog at the sock filter in the fuel tank or in the main fuel filter
A worn fuel pump relief valve or roller cell.
Or.....
Rising or falling voltage to the pump, ECU system or ignition system.
If voltage to the ECU drops below about 10.5 volts....it gets slightly richer. If voltage goes back up it leans back to normal.
This may be caused by an overall system voltage drop....or.....it fould be that the system voltage is fine but the feed from the ECU relay to the system is poor.
Same possible issue with fuel pump. Low voltage effect with ignition is ....."subtle". The high compression D-jet engine is ignited barely adequately from the factory. When its adjusted better than factory tune....usually leaner......weak ignition voltage can show up as a alow sliding rise and fall of power.
2. Yes....it could very well be a vacuum issue. A slow rising and falling oscillation that affects fuel mixture at the MPS.
As Pepperbilly mentioned......important suspects of this are the connector tubes from the runners to the plenum. Its not JUST an alignment thing though. Its a fit thing. Leaking runner tubes are one of the hardest vacuum leaks to track down.....because they only seem to leak at,specific vibration ranges and temperature combinations.
When I install runner boots.....I always slide them onto the runners back toward the injector enx....with about 1/2" of runner tube showing. Apply RTV ...thinly around the runner tube with a cotton swab. Slide the runner tube across that band of RTV which applies a thin smear to the inside without getting it into the center of the boot.....push it hard against the plenum....and clamp the injector end. Leave the clamp on. This prevents the runner boot from backing off with age, heat and vibration.
Another vacuum related cause......the o-ring between TB and plenum.
A big one.....that CAN cause this effect......is the factory PCV valve. It opens due to a COMBINATION of vacuum and case gases. This means it oscilllates and rises and falls.....and has no correlated control from the ECU.....and it effects the MPS directly.
This is why I get rid of the PCV valve and put a fixed orifice in.
Another important thing to check. The MPS could be leaking either at the main o-ring or crom a crack starting in the copper plate. Very slight leaks may only show up with heat and vibration at high rpm.
Also check that the transmission modulator is not leaking up and down slowly. This csn not only add fuel via the MPS.....it changes transmission load.
3. A rising or falling increase in vacuum advance. As you cruise....at narrowcpart throttle settings......vacuum will be high in the manifold. Vacuum advance gets partially re-established. Very minor changes to vacuum can cause slow oscillation. This is one of the reasons 914's and some 411 and 412 received an adjustable vacuum advance unit with a set screw that helped this.
Ray |
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Pepperbilly
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Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:59 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Really good stuff from Ray.
Ron, you mentioned earlier that you removed your inline fuel dampener can. I would try and find another one. ALSO, double check that your entire throttle body plenum is securely fastened to the top of the case. If loose any pulling from the throttle cable will move that entire housing creating fluctuations in throttle response.
Bill |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| Quote: |
It kind of feels like an 80s car with cruise control that is not that effective at steady state driving.
And.....most of the cruise control back then was fully controlled by a vacuum cannister....and sometimes later.....was kept steady with a vacuum pump. This thought process is key because OUR engines are controlled by vacuum as well! 😉 |
That is exactly what I'm experiencing - I was struggling trying to explain this. Now, I have something to bite on.
1) Intake Runners: I'm pretty sure these are okay, so I'll move this towards the bottom of my to-do list. I carefully followed both your phenolic spacer procedure (with the mini paint roller) and the RTV application under the hoses that join runners to air box.
2) Feed pipe filter in the gas tank. Entirely possible. Never touched it. I'm leaving this on the list too. My thought processes is that if the 'sock' is clogged, it will cause the engine to be without fuel and cause it to 'cough' or hesitate and not have a gentle cruise control surge. Just a hypothesis. I should check this sock regardless. So, if I fix the issue without removing this, I'm adding it to my Spring project list.
| Quote: |
| slow submarine effect. |
Yet another spot-on way to explain this scenario.
3) Fuel pressure regulator. Haven't checked the pressure in 7 years, so this is entirely possible. I'm going to re-check my fuel pressure, but need to re-school myself how to do this. A slight decrease of fuel (not starvation) does jive with what the car is doing.
4) Fuel Pump: Rollers and Fuel Pump check valves. I had Jim Adney overhaul this pump and I presume, he ran it through all of these checks. His work is good, but the first pump he did for me ended up freezing and I had to fork over the $$ to have that one rebuilt for a second time. In fairness to Jim, that pump sat dormant in the car for year, no real blame assigned. So - I'm also moving the pump to the bottom with the feed pipe filter and runners.
5) Rising/Falling Voltage to ECU / FI system: I sure hope not, but this is an excellent observation. Since I still have the panels off, I'm going to install an in-line voltage meter to the ECU and temporarily put it near the dash where I can see it. Will do the same with voltage to the fuel pump. Wiring is my thing, so I'll temporarily run an in-line volt meter in the pump circuit as well.
6) O-Ring between TB and plenum: This thing is a PITA to get at, but I could see how it could develop a slow leak at speed and cause this condition. Normally, I would spray WD-40 on that junction and see if it changes engine behavior. But -- the engine holds idle beautifully AND the idle screw is very responsive. I'm one of those lucky people who can adjust that screw to almost a stall when tightened down and a 2K+ RPM fully opened. (which I do for the A/C). However, because this happens at speed and under load, the WD-40 trick probably wont work. Unless I have an unlucky friend laying over the open engine with the can as I'm flying down the highway. Definitely keeping on the list.
7) PCV: I am running the OG PCV system with no changes. I remember struggling with this early on. The vacuum is extremely high in this circuit. Ray, you suggested a work-around by drilling a specific sized hole through the PCV valve (fixed orifice) to avoid issue. I'm going to check the valve right away and re-read your fix if I find any faults in it. Probably be one of this first things I'll do, especially since the vacuum and case gasses can actually impact the MPS. I never knew that.
8.) Transmission modulator: The trans shifts a little rough between 1-2. Before I adjust the actual transmission, I want to do this right away. I'm just not too sure how to diagnose a leak in this thing. Any suggestions would be appreciated and I'll report back my findings so everyone can benefit from this test. Highly suspect here.
9) MPS issue: Man... I hope not. I remember going through pages and pages of posts to dial this thing in to my needy, unique engine. So time consuming, but really worth it. Life lesson I've learned from the MPS: A perfectly new one out of the box (if there is such a thing) has little to do with improved performance. The MPS needs to be dialed in to your specific 50-year old engine. A good analogy would be painting a section of your car with the exact, original paint, but 25 years later. The paint may be the original mix, but the color isn't going to match your car. Same with the MPS - it needs to be set to your unique vacuum settings. If I learned anything about D-Jet...it's that. Definitely top of the list.
| Quote: |
| Ron, you mentioned earlier that you removed your inline fuel dampener can. I would try and find another one. ALSO, double check that your entire throttle body plenum is securely fastened to the top of the case. If loose any pulling from the throttle cable will move that entire housing creating fluctuations in throttle response. |
Bill!! I seriously should have consulted you before I climbed under my car in the freezing cold. Indeed, there was no damper plumbed in; I left it out for some reason. Also, that's a wise observation about the accelerator cable pulling a loose plenum or throttle body. I'll check them both.
Yip, it's sitting in my toolbox. Not in the car.
Since both you and Ray mentioned this thing, I'm going to plumb it in to the fuel system once I run my tank down. This is the first thing I'll do along with checking out the regulator, trans modulator and PCV system. Since it has no moving parts in it, there's no testing necessary. If anything, I'm sure this damper helps reduce wear on the pressure regulator too by lessening the 'impact' of the pump pulses that may be causing my car pulses! Kind of a nifty invention.
So - thanks for the input everyone. I'll let you know how things progress as I move through these items. Hoping I get lucky and the source of this surging is indeed the damper.
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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Pepperbilly
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Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Ron,
Oh yeah. FREEZING COLD! That’s exactly why my project has slowed down. No good heat out in that garage. Certainly can relate.
Bill |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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A couple of updates...
First, a shout out to Pepperbilly and Alex over at ISP West. Today, I received the beltline brightwork for my T4. ISP attached the chrome strips to a 1X2 piece of wood and shipped it in a box that actually fit the product. Well done! Highly recommended if you are looking for body trim. I also did a dry fit-up of all the pieces and each piece is a perfect fit. Well worth the investment.
I finally got around to starting work on the door panels. A friend and I put these together using the old ones as templates. I did add a thin layer of foam under the vinyl; whereas the factory did not do that on my model. I'm pretty happy with the fit. The only thing I need to button up is the trim on the bottom storage pocket (it's peeling off). Should be a quick fix.
Thanks to Ray, I now have the correct clips to attach everything. The finished (well, semi-finished) panel came out pretty good:
The driver side is now complete. There is already a huge difference when I shut the door and the car is much quieter. The Q-pads along with the foam under the vinyl in the door panels really makes a difference.
I also was able to do the driver side rear panel:
I just need to find the part that goes under the rear seat side armrest. It looks like another panel piece fits in there, but they never came with the car, so I'm going to have to wing it and make something up. There was a large void under the rear seat side panel. I applied Q-pads there too, hopefully, that will keep down highway noise. It looks like there was a sound deadening pad in there at some point, but it basically turned to dust and I picked the pieces out from the bottom. Hopefully, this week I'll get to the passenger side and the rear trunk panel.
Brought her out for a ride today, can't wait to get that trim on!
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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NurseryWalt
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Joined: January 29, 2016
Posts: 145
Location: Abbotsford, BC
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:03 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Hello Ron,
Looking good. I too have received trim from ISP West. However, it will be a while before I can use it. My restorer has been a bit slow. Nice work on the inside panels. Keep up the good work.
Walter
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Pepperbilly
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Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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The interior panels look wonderful! The car will become so much quieter after you get them all in.
Glad it worked out for you Ron and Walter to get those trims. Alex Pegado has probably sold out all those trims he had specially made by now.
Bill |
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oasis
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Joined: December 12, 2002
Posts: 2168
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
| The interior panels look wonderful! |
Agreed! 
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Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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It's time to replace my tie rod ends on the 412. All of the other front end work was done when I first got the car.
Any recommendations as to the best tie rod ends to use?
Thanks!
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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Pepperbilly
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Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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The inner tie rod ends I got from WestCoastMetric. They are the slightly angled 9 degree type…a type 3 part number. I bought my outers from FCP Euro and I believe they were a Porsche part by Lemforder. Of course I haven’t driven the car yet so no reviews there.
Bill |
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ClassicCamper
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:54 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| Quote: |
I bought my outers from FCP Euro and I believe they were a Porsche part by Lemforder. Of course I haven’t driven the car yet so no reviews there.
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I'm right with you, Bill. I ordered Lemfoerders for the outside.
The part is listed as: Tie Rod End (Front Left Outer)
Part Number: 311 415 811 C
I ordered two of these above.
Did I order correctly?? The reason I ask is there is another part number for the outers: Tie Rod End (Front Right Outer)
Part Number: 311 415 812 C
Just want to make sure I ordered correctly.
Thanks all!
[/b]
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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Pepperbilly
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Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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I reviewed my order. I got 2X #’s 311415811C. I installed them but no align yet. Probably if it’s wrong the 412 will run backwards lol!
Bill |
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412STi
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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You did the right thing there.
311 415 811 C is mounted outside left and outside right.
For inside left and inside right you need 311 415 818 B (is 9° angled)
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Gerold
The morning brings a mystery, the evening makes it history
The oil can not be, was none in it. |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Ha! I did the same thing. The difference between the two is the thread direction. Like you, I'm sticking with the part numbers. We'll both find out when we bring them in for alignments. I'll report back what happens.
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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