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DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4753
Location: Bemidji, MN
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 Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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just finished a carb refurb on my sister's 11.5hp Briggs mower motor that was varnished up, rubber bits including float needle tip swollen beyond use and a bowl gasket expanded beyond reason and general malaise cured only by new parts and a hot Pine Sol ultrasonic bath. she wouldn't buy the non-ethanol premium..... that stuff is evil for small engines. maybe not so good for vintage cars.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16852
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| It turned out to be about 20% better in total carbon footprint than oil, but recently someone has measured the trapped CO2 released by tilling |
| Witless Joe wrote: |
farmers till the soil for the corn, and put ever increasing amounts of land under tillage,] |
who the f*ck is still using tilling in corn production?
we have been using a no till planter since Christ was a cowboy as it totally eliminates DAYS worth of work (not to mention fuel)
we have a 10 row version of this:
https://www.purplewave.com/auction/220525A/item/JR9602?utm_source=machinio&utm_medium=referral
i couldn't imagine going back to using a harrow before planting corn
anyway, when all of this got started we watched grain prices about double overnight. use to be able to feed 1k turkeys for about 7K. it's closer to 22k now
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Vanuber
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2020
Posts: 411
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
| just finished a carb refurb on my sister's 11.5hp Briggs mower motor that was varnished up, rubber bits including float needle tip swollen beyond use and a bowl gasket expanded beyond reason and general malaise cured only by new parts and a hot Pine Sol ultrasonic bath. she wouldn't buy the non-ethanol premium..... that stuff is evil for small engines. maybe not so good for vintage cars. |
I have been using ethanol-free gas for years in my 70's BMW motorcycles. As I understand it, ethanol is hygroscopic and can bond with hydrogen. This invites water from the air into the gasoline when sitting for a bit. This wreaks havoc on the tank liner and promotes rust. Ethanol gas is also destructive to the plastic bits (float and gaskets) in the carburetors.
I just assumed my '85 Westy or anything manufactured prior to the popularity of ethanol might have similar issues and have been using ethanol-free fuel since I bought the van.
Does anyone know if Vanagon tanks or fuel delivery systems are harmed by ethanol gas? The fuel tanks are metal, so I would assume the same rules apply there.
Interesting info on gas mileage. I had not considered that. It would be interesting to compare octane levels and MPG as well though I doubt the cost would be offset. 93 ethanol-free is the easiest for me to find.
_________________
'85 Westfalia 1.9L
'72 BMW R75/5
'71 BMW R75/5
'02 Subaru Forester 2.5L |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Neither number is wonderful 14.373 mpg 10%
15.057 for ethanol free.
Mostly around town short hops under 20 miles.
Automatic trans. |
My '91 ALH mTDI Automatic always gets better than 25 MPG and has vastly better performance than a 2.1 WBX. My ALH mTDI is more reliable and less expensive for maintenance than a 2.1 WBX.
At times I do pay a premium on diesel. The local fuel prices are currently (sometimes it flips the other direction and diesel is less expensive than regular unleaded):
4.36 - regular unleaded
4.66 - premium unleaded
5.29 - diesel
That means that I currently pay 22% more per gallon for diesel vs. regular unleaded. I pay 14% more per gallon for diesel vs. premium. I get 67% better miles per gallon. |
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dabaron
Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018
Posts: 2559
Location: Philly, mang
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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drove 425 miles over the weekend to upstate NY and back and averaged 18.17 mpg - regular 87 octane with the 10% ethanol. never went over 65 and did lots of lesser roads with a 48 mile section of interstate.
climbing that last hill on the Taconic to NY 301 was a Bear 
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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jimf909 
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7455
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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^^^ Trains? Bike rides? I hope it was a good trip.
_________________
- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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Here's my experience with ethanol free "pure" gas...
Last year, I was living in New Mexico. I had my syncro with me, so it was
my daily driver for about 10 months 
I made a lot of trips to California to see my dad. Usually, this was usually a 13 hour, 800+ mile drive one-way. These were all done in my syncro, except for 1 trip when my van was down with a fuel leak. I rented a car. More on that later.
The first 5 or 6 trips, I used regular pump gas. The last few trips, I used ethanol free gas on the initial fill up (3 tanks to my dads).
2 things I noticed were: race car exhaust smell, and additional driving range, even if I only used ethanol free gas on my initial fill up. If I started out my trip in NM with a full tank of ethanol free gas, I could make it to my dads on my last fill up in Quartsite, AZ with regular pump gas. That last fill up was important as the gas sold there was about $1 less per gallon vs California. Before, when I was using pump gas, I needed to stop and fill up 10-15 miles before my destination in CA.
The downside to the ethanol free gas was that it caused a fuel leak. Seems like all the crappy pump gas was keeping the original seal at my syncro gas tank swollen. When I put in "pure" gas, the seal relaxed and I had a gas leak. Not being able to fix that leak at the time, I switched back to standard pump gas. Leak went away, along with my additional driving range (15 to 20 extra miles per tank). This makes since, because pump gas "may" contain 10% ethanol, whereas pure gas does not, so you are getting 1+ gallon more real gas per tank.
So, IMO, use ethanol free gas if you can, but your gas tank seals and fuel lines will need to be new or fresh. |
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dabaron
Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018
Posts: 2559
Location: Philly, mang
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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| jimf909 wrote: |
| ^^^ Trains? Bike rides? I hope it was a good trip. |
you know me too well.
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32564
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4753
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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| djkeev wrote: |
It might be my imagination but it might have a bit more "ZIP" pulling some of the daily grades?
The beautiful early Summer days with the windows down may be the reason as well.......
Dave |
every single 'ping' not experienced is more power to the wheels. and many are not audible so you may gain more than you think.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4348
Location: United States, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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Might seem odd from an Iowa dweller to say this, but I drive a 5% climb roughly 1 mile long every day after work. I can hit it exactly the same on each run, with slight variance of load due to fuel tank level, and groceries gotten. Most days I have the road completely open, nobody clogging my run at the hill, so I try to start the climb at 64 mph. I floor it as I hit the grade, and keep it pegged. Some days I can hold 64, others I slowly fall to 55 or slower. My observation (other than gasoline being 100% gasoline/petrol/benzine) is that temperature and humidity are the cause of the 'holds 64' or doesn't --- mid 40's F and 60% humidity are when it holds. Hotter and more humidity are toll takers. Colder and drier don't help either. Obviously I flip the A/C off as I start up the climb in the hot months.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32564
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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| bobbyblack wrote: |
| Might seem odd from an Iowa dweller to say this, but I drive a 5% climb roughly 1 mile long every day after work. I can hit it exactly the same on each run, with slight variance of load due to fuel tank level, and groceries gotten. Most days I have the road completely open, nobody clogging my run at the hill, so I try to start the climb at 64 mph. I floor it as I hit the grade, and keep it pegged. Some days I can hold 64, others I slowly fall to 55 or slower. My observation (other than gasoline being 100% gasoline/petrol/benzine) is that temperature and humidity are the cause of the 'holds 64' or doesn't --- mid 40's F and 60% humidity are when it holds. Hotter and more humidity are toll takers. Colder and drier don't help either. Obviously I flip the A/C off as I start up the climb in the hot months. |
Interesting...... ^^^^^
My Van has been running strong and really really good ....... but the weather has been amazing too!
Shirt sleeve and sunny.
Maybe there is a very real relationship between good weather and good running?
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32564
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32564
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Bonesberg55
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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| Stopped in central Wisconsin during a recent road trip for refueling at a BP. My pump had Ultimate ethanol-free for the same price as regular. I inquired inside and they said that my pump had been overlooked in being reset and that they would shut the pump down after I filled up which I did immediately. Surprisingly, my gas mileage went down by about 2 mpg. I keep accurate records and always do the math as opposed to using the mileage gauge. I usually avoid BP fuels so I don't know if it was simply the brand of fuel that caused the mileage drop or is this proof that premium fuel is a scam? My previous fillup was Shell regular. I would have to say that you are throwing money away if you are using premium when your vehicle does not require it. |
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davlance01
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 224
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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As a premium fuel truck driver for quite a few years I can tell you that when you fuel your truck at the rack and you put the customer code in the computer it pulls from a completely different tank. It is not the same fuel as your convenient store gasoline.
That does not make it better by no means because it can be the best gasoline in the world but if that fuel is dumped in a ground tank with 12 inches of who knows what at the bottom of it then....its now garbage too!
Ask any convenient store clerk when the last time the filters were changed at the pump and I'm betting they don't know there are filters there. And don't even get me started on the seals on the caps on the in ground tanks that allow rain, snow and dirt into the tanks, and I love the just dump that 87 octane in that 91 octane tank it'll be OK! I know for a fact there was a station in Pittsburgh PA with a 91 octane tank half full of diesel because I know the driver that did it and didn't say anything and no complaints ever came back.
I always swore by shell fuel until one day I filled my tank with mud from one of them, now I think they all suck so now I pick the busiest place and hope I stay safe.
I now have a in tank fuel pump with a canister 10 micron fuel filter that lasts about 300 hours before I have to change it out.
All fuel sucks now days because you just have no real way of knowing what you are buying.
my 2 cents for what its worth. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22633
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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I’m taking off 5 points for each significant figure error.
You have to use the same station and pump to make these tests meaningful. Volume delivered error is roughly 5% between pumps and 2.5% at a given pump.
Measuring 20 mpg , that means a 0.5 mpg variation due to gas volume alone
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.ssS! |
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Bonesberg55
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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| Abscate wrote: |
I’m taking off 5 points for each significant figure error.
You have to use the same station and pump to make these tests meaningful. Volume delivered error is roughly 5% between pumps and 2.5% at a given pump.
Measuring 20 mpg , that means a 0.5 mpg variation due to gas volume alone |
Since gasoline pricing is measured in tenths of one cent which implies precision, I have to question these figures and the legality of such errors in delivery if true. That would mean at a nominal $5.00 per gallon, you could actually be paying as much as $5.125 or as low as $4.875 at a given pump. |
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dabaron
Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018
Posts: 2559
Location: Philly, mang
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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| Bonesberg55 wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
I’m taking off 5 points for each significant figure error.
You have to use the same station and pump to make these tests meaningful. Volume delivered error is roughly 5% between pumps and 2.5% at a given pump.
Measuring 20 mpg , that means a 0.5 mpg variation due to gas volume alone |
Since gasoline pricing is measured in tenths of one cent which implies precision, I have to question these figures and the legality of such errors in delivery if true. That would mean at a nominal $5.00 per gallon, you could actually be paying as much as $5.125 or as low as $4.875 at a given ump. |
here is the standard used in Pennsylvania
| Quote: |
| Weights and measures officials check fuel pumps annually for accuracy. Inspectors measure fuel in cubic inches; there are 231 cubic inches (or 256 tablespoons) in one gallon of fuel. An error of plus or minus six (+/- 6) cubic inches per five (5) gallons (approximately 1 tablespoon per gallon) is the maximum error allowed before a fuel pump is rejected |
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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minah
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Gasoline experiment |
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So here is my experience with the pure gas experiment.
I filled up a full tank last week. Drove about 70 miles throughout the week. Van sat over the weekend and when I went to start it today fuel leaked from BOTH sides at the injectors area.
Those hoses/injectors/crimp clamps are new in the last year and have only used the standard 10% E gas here in Colorado.
Why would pure gas cause a leak?
_________________
'91 Westy - 'Galaxy'
'74 Super Beetle - 'Bee'
'78 Beetle Champagne II - 'Komet' - Killed by hail storm Summer 2020 RIP |
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