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khoyer01 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2006 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 11:06 am Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Well... Ran to the store for gas and some groceries, it was running great. then while waiting in line for gas it stumbles and dies. hmmm...start it back up no problem, turn off to get gas, then no crank. Fiddle with a couple things tried again nothing. Checked power it was good, checked fuel also good, still no crank, well I think it s the starter(previous owner had stated possible starting issues), and so goes the tow . once home I checked ignition switch with new was not that. I ordered westyventures adaptor and a SR0425X to put in.
after wrestling with the removal of the starter for 1.5 days (no special tools or jack stands) it finally freed up. Man that is a beast getting to those connections, nuts and bolts.(maybe I should have removed throttle intake but I was a little scared to crack it)! the adapter mounted up great! notching the starter posed a slight problem having no grinding tool and had to hand file it down (hope I did not ruin it). but I finally got it in (not sure if the svx makes clearance more difficult but those final connections were near impossible to get on while installed, only could hand tighten no room for a tool).
Starter is in, reconnected battery, fired right up! but now its running like crap! really low idle, high idle, stumbles dies, and shudders under load??? what gives?
does the ECU need to do a full reset and relearn after being disconnected from the battery or is something completely unrelated but coincidental occurring?
Thanks for any and all help you guys have been great! _________________ 87 2.3 Westy (sold)
87 SVX Syncro GL |
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Captain Pike Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003 Posts: 3328 Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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check your vac lines _________________ If You Build It______It Will Run
1959 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current....................... |
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khoyer01 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2006 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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I was going to check that, however, I guess i'm not sure where all of them are, maybe I inadvertently removed one or broke one trying to access the starter?? does anyone have a schematic or picture of the vac lines for the SVX? _________________ 87 2.3 Westy (sold)
87 SVX Syncro GL |
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Captain Pike Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003 Posts: 3328 Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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wesitarz Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012 Posts: 1477 Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 9:39 am Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Could be a reason you are the 4th owner. You need to do some sleuthing. Be methodical. Avoid throwing parts at it. Google Subaru SVX rough idle for ideas.
Check for vacuum leaks. Clean the throttle body. Engine shudder sounds like a misfire. Check fuel pressure with a gauge. Run injector cleaner through it. Check PCV valve. Check plugs,wires and coil(s). Clean MAF. Check resistance on temp sensor. Check,check and clean this and clean that. Avoid throwing parts at it. Keep in mind that your ECU might be hooped. Good luck. |
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khoyer01 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2006 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Update. Thanks captain pike and wesitarz for your replys and links to factory manuals. after some significant investigation and adjustments Ive made a little progress but still running really rich and potentially misfiring with shudder under load @3000 rpm and up. prior to changing out the starter I was running a little rich maybe but not like this, avg 15-16mpg. now after a 40 mi drive I got apprx 5-6 mpg, yikes.
what I found. again my only change was the starter.
The vacuum system is completely mis-routed and even missing some connections I've used the following diagram which corresponds to the 92 SVX
here is how mine is currently routed from what I can tell with out manifold removal. the "x" denotes not connected; the red is my routing; "?" denotes not sure if its connected; and 1. denotes the connection I made today just cause it was easy even though it is incorrect thought it might have fallen off. all of the rest of the routing seems to be correct from what I can see
again I made no changes to this system and it was likely like this for a long while and running reasonably well for my 150mi drive and the PO as a daily driver.
what I did today.
1.securely tighten battery connection to starter solenoid ( sheesh that was a tight fit)
2. cleaned all engine grounds
3. cleaned transmission ground
4. re evaluated and sealed the modified throttle intake box/resonator that had a crack.
observations.
1. started right up in its usual warm up cycle high idle for 5 min, then idle apprx 1000rpm
2. it did not stall out
3. it still shudders under load at 3000 rpm and up more prominent in 3rd and 4th gear.
4. it guzzled gas 5-6mpg for 40mi (misfire??)
5. heavy exhaust smell (running rich?)
6. coolant temp gauge stayed at cold the entire drive? (this is also new)
7. alt light on continuously (this was intermittent previously)
8. idle was hunting upon return at home between 1100-1300
9. expansion tank overflowed, pressure cap appears to work, I have no coolant overflow tank (this is also new, but I did add some coolant earlier to get the appropriate level, so possibly my fault)
other things I am considering: the crack in the exhaust manifold. possible that coincidentally a coil pack or plug has failed. temp gauge failure. stuck thermostat. vacuum intake nightmare.
anyways that is. it still running pretty crappy and I have no idea why. I know it is impossible to diagnose with out the correct vacuum routing, i'm just nervous to pull the manifold i've never done that before.
any one in pdx willing to diagnose and work on this problem or am I stuck?
Thanks you guys are all I got so I appreciate you tremendously. _________________ 87 2.3 Westy (sold)
87 SVX Syncro GL |
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davideric9 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009 Posts: 998 Location: Oakland CA
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Well, this sounds tough. Sorry for your troubles. Removing the intake manifold is not that hard, make sure to remove the risers from the head, not the manifold from the riser. Unless its already been addressed the original vacuum hoses will be rock hard and brittle, plan on replacing all the small hoses and as many as the large ones as you can find.
Do you have a check engine light? you can blink out the error codes if you do. Sounds like you may have coolant temp sensor and/or O2 sensor failure. I guess you could have damaged a wire or one of these connectors may have come undone. _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia, stock (bought 1994)
1986 Syncro Westfalia SVX, 3 knob (bought 2008)
1987 Westfalia (bought 2010)
1988 Wolfsburg GL (bought 2012) |
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wesitarz Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012 Posts: 1477 Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3262 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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khoyer01 wrote: |
Update. Thanks captain pike and wesitarz for your replys and links to factory manuals. after some significant investigation and adjustments Ive made a little progress but still running really rich and potentially misfiring with shudder under load @3000 rpm and up. prior to changing out the starter I was running a little rich maybe but not like this, avg 15-16mpg. now after a 40 mi drive I got apprx 5-6 mpg, yikes.
what I found. again my only change was the starter.
The vacuum system is completely mis-routed and even missing some connections I've used the following diagram which corresponds to the 92 SVX
here is how mine is currently routed from what I can tell with out manifold removal. the "x" denotes not connected; the red is my routing; "?" denotes not sure if its connected; and 1. denotes the connection I made today just cause it was easy even though it is incorrect thought it might have fallen off. all of the rest of the routing seems to be correct from what I can see
again I made no changes to this system and it was likely like this for a long while and running reasonably well for my 150mi drive and the PO as a daily driver.
what I did today.
1.securely tighten battery connection to starter solenoid ( sheesh that was a tight fit)
2. cleaned all engine grounds
3. cleaned transmission ground
4. re evaluated and sealed the modified throttle intake box/resonator that had a crack.
observations.
1. started right up in its usual warm up cycle high idle for 5 min, then idle apprx 1000rpm
2. it did not stall out
3. it still shudders under load at 3000 rpm and up more prominent in 3rd and 4th gear.
4. it guzzled gas 5-6mpg for 40mi (misfire??)
5. heavy exhaust smell (running rich?)
6. coolant temp gauge stayed at cold the entire drive? (this is also new)
7. alt light on continuously (this was intermittent previously)
8. idle was hunting upon return at home between 1100-1300
9. expansion tank overflowed, pressure cap appears to work, I have no coolant overflow tank (this is also new, but I did add some coolant earlier to get the appropriate level, so possibly my fault)
other things I am considering: the crack in the exhaust manifold. possible that coincidentally a coil pack or plug has failed. temp gauge failure. stuck thermostat. vacuum intake nightmare.
anyways that is. it still running pretty crappy and I have no idea why. I know it is impossible to diagnose with out the correct vacuum routing, i'm just nervous to pull the manifold i've never done that before.
any one in pdx willing to diagnose and work on this problem or am I stuck?
Thanks you guys are all I got so I appreciate you tremendously. |
The symptoms described above, especially the shuddering that is more noticeable in higher gears, strongly point to a failed ignition coil or the wiring to the coil.
You can check for which coil (or coils) is/are the problem by starting the engine from dead cold with the rear of the van raised enough to allow you access to all the exhaust header portions closest to the cylinder head. Run the engine for, say, 20 seconds and then scurry under the van and feel each runner. The cylinder(s) with the problem coil will have a cold exhaust primary.
You may also need to replace the spark plugs. After doing the test above, remove all the spark plugs and inspect. If they look at all compromised, replace them all to rule out the spark plugs themselves as causing the misfire.
Since the engine was run for a long time with the misfire problem, your oxygen sensors might need to be replaced. Be careful not to mix up the wiring to connect the oxygen sensors to the wrong connectors. It is possible someone who did not know better already mixed these up.
When the coil wire looms fall out of the valve covers, the wires move around a lot and then fail at the point where the wires enter the coil. (Ask me how I know. ) _________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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khoyer01 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2006 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 9:21 am Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Thank you every one for the insight and replies. I will check coils and change plugs probably today and report back. I do not think I have a check engine light??? where would that be? if it is the OXS light it is persistently on and the POs placed a small piece of electrical tape to block the light. is their a brand of coil packs and spark plugs people have used and liked? There are a ton of options and I want to make sure everything fits right. same goes for the O2 sensors. picture of my O2 set up below
how do I know which one is which and are they different part numbers?
Thanks again everyone lets hope I can get this sorted out soon _________________ 87 2.3 Westy (sold)
87 SVX Syncro GL |
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GoEverywhere Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020 Posts: 515 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 9:26 am Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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khoyer01 wrote: |
Thank you every one for the insight and replies. I will check coils and change plugs probably today and report back. I do not think I have a check engine light??? where would that be? if it is the OXS light it is persistently on and the POs placed a small piece of electrical tape to block the light. is their a brand of coil packs and spark plugs people have used and liked? There are a ton of options and I want to make sure everything fits right. same goes for the O2 sensors. picture of my O2 set up below
how do I know which one is which and are they different part numbers?
Thanks again everyone lets hope I can get this sorted out soon |
You should check out those cracks in your exhaust header. If they're leaking they're gonna throw your O2 readings seriously off. It looks like someone did a pretty poor welding job trying to fit that O2 sensor there. |
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khoyer01 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2006 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 9:42 am Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Yeah, I was going to throw some jb weld on those cracks to see if it helps as well before springing for the small car set up _________________ 87 2.3 Westy (sold)
87 SVX Syncro GL |
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khoyer01 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2006 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:39 am Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Checked for a misfire per howesights method (20 sec is right that got hot real quick. ouch!) found that passenger side front collector (closest to the rear) was indeed cold vs all the other which where extremely hot. I'm a little excited but, not too much tho! I'm going to replace the coil pack and probably all the plugs( One job at a time of course) and Ill report back! do you think 40miles was enough to kill the O2 sensors?
other things that I still need to sort: temp gauge reading/response, alt light always on, and the vacuum nightmare...plus a million little other things... but hey maybe I've made some progress on this new running issue. thanks again and stay tuned. _________________ 87 2.3 Westy (sold)
87 SVX Syncro GL |
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davideric9 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009 Posts: 998 Location: Oakland CA
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:57 am Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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I think you can test the coils by removing the coil and the plug (or use a known good plug) and have someone turn the key while you short the plug to the block (or head) with the spark plug in the coil. If you see a spark, the coil is probably ok.
Check the little rubber boots on each coil to make sure they are supple and not cracked AT ALL. I use a little dielectric grease on the boot to keep moisture out. The contact in the coil is spring loaded to press on the plug, make sure the spring is still moving.
If you have a misfire, you may be able to hear the spark jump (at idle) to the head coincident with the misfire, a ticking noise.
Get some documentation and check the coolant temp sensor with a VOM. You can also check the function of the O2 sensor by back probing the connectors (or at the ECU).
The heads are labeled L(eft) and R(ight). Remember the engine is in the vanagon backwards from how it was installed in the SVX. I think the O2 sensors have identical plugs, so if they are misplugged I don't know how you can tell by looking, perhaps someone else can fill us in on this.
If you have a check engine light here is the procedure for blinking out the codes (these wires will be at the ECU).
Locate blue wires.
Locate black connector (smaller of the 2 black ones). Hold it notch up.
With ignition off, insert one of the wires into top row, 2nd pin from left.
Turn key to on position, but do not start the car.
Count the blinks from check engine light on dashboard.
_________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia, stock (bought 1994)
1986 Syncro Westfalia SVX, 3 knob (bought 2008)
1987 Westfalia (bought 2010)
1988 Wolfsburg GL (bought 2012) |
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wesitarz Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012 Posts: 1477 Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Rockauto has Bosch O2 sensors (OEM) and Denso. They also have NGK coils. They are expensive so find out whick one(s) are bad. Examining the O2 sensors (2) and the plugs and the coils themselves might give you an clue. The coolant temp sensor is cheap but maybe a bugger to R&R. |
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khoyer01 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2006 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Update
Hey all thanks for the insight once again. so I grabbed an ngk coil replaced it. it fired right up and was really smooth, was idling really well in the drive way. Went to take it for a test drive, then it wouldn't turn over??? If you recall I had said the alt light had been flickering intermittently or was just staying on...well now I think the alternator really went out. I put the meter on the battery it was a little low at 11.8v, I waited a while, came back and it started right up kept the meter on and it was slowly drifting 11-->10--turned on the lights-->8 then died. this all seem so coincidental or is it all related? IDK I am going to get a new alt from a local flaps see if it fixes anything. Any replacement options for the svx alternator that people like and use with little to no modification? or should I trouble shoot something else that could be causing the alternator problem?
Thanks Again! _________________ 87 2.3 Westy (sold)
87 SVX Syncro GL |
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khoyer01 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2006 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Update
well...after some sleuthing, I found that the alt wires on the stud were literally hanging on by a thread. I cranked it back down, gave it a jump, and voila! held charge at 14.5v. took it for a test drive no more shudder, very smooth shifting. now it will idle around 600 sometimes 1100, but it is not hunting, it chooses one or the other. I still have the throttle sticking and keeps it at like 1800 but if i pull up on the gas it drops back down, soooo I still have some sorting to do but its running and driving much better. thanks everyone and i'll post updates and photos as I learn and do more to upgrade our new syncro here!
here's a happy photo of the syncro in the wild!
_________________ 87 2.3 Westy (sold)
87 SVX Syncro GL |
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wesitarz Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012 Posts: 1477 Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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What does the alt plug look like and what colour wires? Google:SVX alternator images
Are the wires/plug in good condition and hooked up properly? eg from Busaru.com:
On the 90-94 harness there are 3 wires in the connector and a large white wire that goes to the post on the alternator. The 3 wires at the connector: Large white to Battery +, yellow to Ignition ON, and Black/White to charge indicator light at the dash. (VW blue) |
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Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3262 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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The problem with the idle rpm not going down to the 600-650 rpm is due to the SmallCar throttle cable causing too much friction for the weak throttle return spring in the SVX throttle body. I added a small spring under the accelerator pedal to fix this.
Having seen the state of your SmallCar header, I think you should inquire of SmallCar whether they have any of their "generation 2" headers in stock. I have had both and the generation 2 header is made of a far better grade of stainless steel than the first generation units were. _________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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khoyer01 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2006 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: SVX in PDX |
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Thanks for the feedback. my alt wire set up looks nothing like you describe wesitarz. I'll take a picture in the am and show. Howesight what do you mean by spring under the pedal? do you have a picture?
Thanks and Cheers! _________________ 87 2.3 Westy (sold)
87 SVX Syncro GL |
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