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Paul.H Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015 Posts: 613 Location: England
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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The dip on this engine right now is all cam/intake related. The dip totally disappears with longer runner length with only slight loss of power above 5500rpm. End of the day it gets whatever fits under the lid regardless of what's best |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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Intake pulsations can also be damped by just not opening the throttle all the way.
But that does not dampen exhaust pulsations. |
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KROC Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2006 Posts: 359 Location: Vancouver B.C.
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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I just removed an A1 1-5/8” sidewinder from a 2275 86b engine I have been running in my 63 T1 for a few years, I have always fought difficulty in tuning the low rpm cruise 2500-3500 rpm area regardless of venturi size it worked best with 37mm vents Heads are 44x37.5 extensively ported it should easily handle 42mm vents, it also is the only engine I have ever built that had a low rpm light load detonation ping... 9.7:1 comp on 94
The engine has my tried and tested italian IDA’s I have had for ever, I tried about 4 different ignition systems and advance curves.
Above 4000 rpm it pulled OK ish
I swapped on an A1 lowdown 1-3/4” Merge with 3” dynomax muffler. The engine is an entirely different animal now! And NO PING any longer , responds wayyy better to jetting, and flat out hauls like it should. next will be putting Doug Berg 40-44 venturies and re jetting
So for this particular engine displacement and combo the side winder is a no go. I wish I had a 1-5/8” conventional Merge on hand to try as I have also build many other fairly high strung 2275’s with regular old conventional style 1-5/8” Merged headers with Turbo muffler with no ill side effects like the side winder showed , so i think I will just keep the side winders for smaller lower state of tune engines. I do love the way they fit and hide the muffler. |
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Paul.H Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015 Posts: 613 Location: England
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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KROC wrote: |
I just removed an A1 1-5/8” sidewinder from a 2275 86b engine I have been running in my 63 T1 for a few years, I have always fought difficulty in tuning the low rpm cruise 2500-3500 rpm area regardless of venturi size it worked best with 37mm vents Heads are 44x37.5 extensively ported it should easily handle 42mm vents, it also is the only engine I have ever built that had a low rpm light load detonation ping... 9.7:1 comp on 94
The engine has my tried and tested italian IDA’s I have had for ever, I tried about 4 different ignition systems and advance curves.
Above 4000 rpm it pulled OK ish
I swapped on an A1 lowdown 1-3/4” Merge with 3” dynomax muffler. The engine is an entirely different animal now! And NO PING any longer , responds wayyy better to jetting, and flat out hauls like it should. next will be putting Doug Berg 40-44 venturies and re jetting
So for this particular engine displacement and combo the side winder is a no go. I wish I had a 1-5/8” conventional Merge on hand to try as I have also build many other fairly high strung 2275’s with regular old conventional style 1-5/8” Merged headers with Turbo muffler with no ill side effects like the side winder showed , so i think I will just keep the side winders for smaller lower state of tune engines. I do love the way they fit and hide the muffler. |
Was that the sidewinder with or without muffler ? Your combo sounds like a race motor that's been choked off with a street muffler. Your initial 37mm vents will choke it down to 165hp and then there's an 86b right in the middle of it that's not a good combo and you had the issues associated with bad combos. The final set up with bigger vents and bigger exhaust is where it should have been at the planning stage saved yourself a lot of cash and hours |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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A longtube header is NOT the right header for all combos.
Is that a surprise?
Everybody has such a story if they stay in the engine game long enough.
But it's interesting you mention that because if you want to build your engine to fit your header then probably we can do that. |
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Paul.H Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015 Posts: 613 Location: England
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 4:08 am Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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A farmer once said " Plenty of cocks crowing but no eggs for breakfast " and the solution was Coq Au Vin for breakfast |
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Dauz Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010 Posts: 1790
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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Big fan of carcraft’s turbo hot ceramic coating.
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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Paul.H wrote: |
A farmer once said " Plenty of cocks crowing but no eggs for breakfast " and the solution was Coq Au Vin for breakfast |
Did he just.... threaten to cook my chicken if I don't produce eggs?
Good to see enthusiasm.
The egg is at the end of the sedan tri-y thread. Build one yourself and see how it works for you. |
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Paul.H Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015 Posts: 613 Location: England
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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modok wrote: |
Paul.H wrote: |
A farmer once said " Plenty of cocks crowing but no eggs for breakfast " and the solution was Coq Au Vin for breakfast |
Did he just.... threaten to cook my chicken if I don't produce eggs?
Good to see enthusiasm.
The egg is at the end of the sedan tri-y thread. Build one yourself and see how it works for you. |
I saw your header and it looks good, may produce better results on certain engine combos but who knows. A lot of VW owners are more more into ornamentals and think a dyno is some sort of Greek snack food |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 12:59 am Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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I appreciate you sharing the results of your experiments.
We are both not done yet |
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UK Luke 72 Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011 Posts: 2867 Location: Little Britain
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Paul.H Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015 Posts: 613 Location: England
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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Last test with odd intake the 4k dip needs tuning probably lean
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King_vw61 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2018 Posts: 1383 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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I have no dip from the Sidewinder. We have put them on 3 engines in the last 4 months and no issues with those engines, They all had A1 exhaust, one was 1 5/8 one was 1 3/4 and the the last was 1 7/8. Mine is 2" step so I'm not in the normal category, never have been.
Mine has a longer pipe after the collector but the others had the bullet and a quiet pack from Tiger. _________________ 1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en |
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KROC Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2006 Posts: 359 Location: Vancouver B.C.
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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Paul.H wrote: |
KROC wrote: |
I just removed an A1 1-5/8” sidewinder from a 2275 86b engine I have been running in my 63 T1 for a few years, I have always fought difficulty in tuning the low rpm cruise 2500-3500 rpm area regardless of venturi size it worked best with 37mm vents Heads are 44x37.5 extensively ported it should easily handle 42mm vents, it also is the only engine I have ever built that had a low rpm light load detonation ping... 9.7:1 comp on 94
The engine has my tried and tested italian IDA’s I have had for ever, I tried about 4 different ignition systems and advance curves.
Above 4000 rpm it pulled OK ish
I swapped on an A1 lowdown 1-3/4” Merge with 3” dynomax muffler. The engine is an entirely different animal now! And NO PING any longer , responds wayyy better to jetting, and flat out hauls like it should. next will be putting Doug Berg 40-44 venturies and re jetting
So for this particular engine displacement and combo the side winder is a no go. I wish I had a 1-5/8” conventional Merge on hand to try as I have also build many other fairly high strung 2275’s with regular old conventional style 1-5/8” Merged headers with Turbo muffler with no ill side effects like the side winder showed , so i think I will just keep the side winders for smaller lower state of tune engines. I do love the way they fit and hide the muffler. |
Was that the sidewinder with or without muffler ? Your combo sounds like a race motor that's been choked off with a street muffler. Your initial 37mm vents will choke it down to 165hp and then there's an 86b right in the middle of it that's not a good combo and you had the issues associated with bad combos. The final set up with bigger vents and bigger exhaust is where it should have been at the planning stage saved yourself a lot of cash and hours |
Hi yes the 1-5/8” sidewinder has the standard issue muffler from A1,
LOL, I wouldn't call this anywhere near a race motor detuned, its a cookie cutter relatively normal 2275 combo that I have been building for decades....as previously mentioned it would have been fine with a conventional 1-5/8” merge and muffler, ( Even better with the 1-3/4” thats now living on it )
The purpose of trying the 1-5/8” side winder was primarily as a test for myself as I have never really used them up until a few years ago as some customers had been requesting them, Granted most of those builds were smaller and/or milder combinations I can get them pulling through the entire RPM range well.. Yes you are correct in that it should have had bigger vents and header from the get go however I wanted to see what the limits were for myself, so no waste of time or money,...No more of a waste of time than the testing increments you are performing yourself., If we had all the answers none of the testing would be necessary would it? |
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Paul.H Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015 Posts: 613 Location: England
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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The street motor v race motor debacle
Basically how I see it is that a street motor spends most of it's time below 5000rpm so you use parts that work well in that range and don't use any parts that detract from that range. The problems arise with these hybrid motors where the owner wants both or a good compromise well that's where skill and knowledge come into it and it's not that easy if you get one thing wrong you end up at best with a nothing burger or at worst a sh1t sandwich. |
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UK Luke 72 Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011 Posts: 2867 Location: Little Britain
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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ivkings4 wrote: |
I have no dip from the Sidewinder. We have put them on 3 engines in the last 4 months and no issues with those engines, They all had A1 exhaust, one was 1 5/8 one was 1 3/4 and the the last was 1 7/8. Mine is 2" step so I'm not in the normal category, never have been.
Mine has a longer pipe after the collector but the others had the bullet and a quiet pack from Tiger. |
If I remember rightly, your dyno pull didn't start until 4k did it?
I wonder if you have the same dip, you just missed it. _________________ 2276 Beetle build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670744&highlight=2276+beetle+daily
2276 EFI Conversion https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=689172 |
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k@rlos Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2012 Posts: 485 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:20 am Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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I’ve got an A1 1 5/8” sidewinder with a twin tube muffler or race bullet depending on my mood 😅 and I’ve never had this dip either. |
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UK Luke 72 Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011 Posts: 2867 Location: Little Britain
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Paul.H Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015 Posts: 613 Location: England
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:07 am Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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It can be a problem doing power runs with carbs as you can't hit full throttle without stalling unless the rpm is high enough and the bigger the carbs the worse it gets. The worst I had was a Holley 4 barrel draw through turbo which would only handle full throttle at about 4k. An Efi motor can handle full throttle as low as 500rpm and can be tuned at very low rpm full throttle |
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k@rlos Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2012 Posts: 485 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' |
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UK Luke 72 wrote: |
k@rlos wrote: |
I’ve got an A1 1 5/8” sidewinder with a twin tube muffler or race bullet depending on my mood 😅 and I’ve never had this dip either. |
You'd never know without it on a dyno. |
I’ve had it on the dyno.
I do take dynos with a pinch of salt though as I could take it a different dyno the next day and make 10hp more or 20hp less. Used it as a tool to get the AFR dialled in, now I’ve got a wideband so won’t ever bother with a rolling road again. |
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