Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Sidewinder 'Dip'
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Paul.H
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
Paul.H is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

The dip on this engine right now is all cam/intake related. The dip totally disappears with longer runner length with only slight loss of power above 5500rpm. End of the day it gets whatever fits under the lid regardless of what's best
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26741
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

Intake pulsations can also be damped by just not opening the throttle all the way.
But that does not dampen exhaust pulsations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KROC
Samba Member


Joined: February 20, 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Vancouver B.C.
KROC is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

I just removed an A1 1-5/8” sidewinder from a 2275 86b engine I have been running in my 63 T1 for a few years, I have always fought difficulty in tuning the low rpm cruise 2500-3500 rpm area regardless of venturi size it worked best with 37mm vents Heads are 44x37.5 extensively ported it should easily handle 42mm vents, it also is the only engine I have ever built that had a low rpm light load detonation ping... 9.7:1 comp on 94
The engine has my tried and tested italian IDA’s I have had for ever, I tried about 4 different ignition systems and advance curves.
Above 4000 rpm it pulled OK ish

I swapped on an A1 lowdown 1-3/4” Merge with 3” dynomax muffler. The engine is an entirely different animal now! And NO PING any longer , responds wayyy better to jetting, and flat out hauls like it should. next will be putting Doug Berg 40-44 venturies and re jetting

So for this particular engine displacement and combo the side winder is a no go. I wish I had a 1-5/8” conventional Merge on hand to try as I have also build many other fairly high strung 2275’s with regular old conventional style 1-5/8” Merged headers with Turbo muffler with no ill side effects like the side winder showed , so i think I will just keep the side winders for smaller lower state of tune engines. I do love the way they fit and hide the muffler.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul.H
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
Paul.H is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 11:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

KROC wrote:
I just removed an A1 1-5/8” sidewinder from a 2275 86b engine I have been running in my 63 T1 for a few years, I have always fought difficulty in tuning the low rpm cruise 2500-3500 rpm area regardless of venturi size it worked best with 37mm vents Heads are 44x37.5 extensively ported it should easily handle 42mm vents, it also is the only engine I have ever built that had a low rpm light load detonation ping... 9.7:1 comp on 94
The engine has my tried and tested italian IDA’s I have had for ever, I tried about 4 different ignition systems and advance curves.
Above 4000 rpm it pulled OK ish

I swapped on an A1 lowdown 1-3/4” Merge with 3” dynomax muffler. The engine is an entirely different animal now! And NO PING any longer , responds wayyy better to jetting, and flat out hauls like it should. next will be putting Doug Berg 40-44 venturies and re jetting

So for this particular engine displacement and combo the side winder is a no go. I wish I had a 1-5/8” conventional Merge on hand to try as I have also build many other fairly high strung 2275’s with regular old conventional style 1-5/8” Merged headers with Turbo muffler with no ill side effects like the side winder showed , so i think I will just keep the side winders for smaller lower state of tune engines. I do love the way they fit and hide the muffler.


Was that the sidewinder with or without muffler ? Your combo sounds like a race motor that's been choked off with a street muffler. Your initial 37mm vents will choke it down to 165hp and then there's an 86b right in the middle of it that's not a good combo and you had the issues associated with bad combos. The final set up with bigger vents and bigger exhaust is where it should have been at the planning stage saved yourself a lot of cash and hours
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26741
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

A longtube header is NOT the right header for all combos. Rolling Eyes
Is that a surprise?
Everybody has such a story if they stay in the engine game long enough.

But it's interesting you mention that because if you want to build your engine to fit your header then probably we can do that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul.H
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
Paul.H is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 4:08 am    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

A farmer once said " Plenty of cocks crowing but no eggs for breakfast " and the solution was Coq Au Vin for breakfast Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Dauz
Samba Member


Joined: January 05, 2010
Posts: 1790

Dauz is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

Big fan of carcraft’s turbo hot ceramic coating.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26741
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

Paul.H wrote:
A farmer once said " Plenty of cocks crowing but no eggs for breakfast " and the solution was Coq Au Vin for breakfast Very Happy

Did he just.... threaten to cook my chicken if I don't produce eggs? Shocked
Good to see enthusiasm.
The egg is at the end of the sedan tri-y thread. Build one yourself and see how it works for you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul.H
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
Paul.H is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Paul.H wrote:
A farmer once said " Plenty of cocks crowing but no eggs for breakfast " and the solution was Coq Au Vin for breakfast Very Happy

Did he just.... threaten to cook my chicken if I don't produce eggs? Shocked
Good to see enthusiasm.
The egg is at the end of the sedan tri-y thread. Build one yourself and see how it works for you.


I saw your header and it looks good, may produce better results on certain engine combos but who knows. A lot of VW owners are more more into ornamentals and think a dyno is some sort of Greek snack food
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26741
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

I appreciate you sharing the results of your experiments.
We are both not done yet Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
UK Luke 72
Samba Member


Joined: September 07, 2011
Posts: 2867
Location: Little Britain
UK Luke 72 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

Paul.H wrote:
a dyno is some sort of Greek snack food


Might as well be if it's a dynojet right?
Laughing
_________________
2276 Beetle build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670744&highlight=2276+beetle+daily
2276 EFI Conversion https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=689172
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul.H
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
Paul.H is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

Last test with odd intake the 4k dip needs tuning probably lean
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

I have no dip from the Sidewinder. We have put them on 3 engines in the last 4 months and no issues with those engines, They all had A1 exhaust, one was 1 5/8 one was 1 3/4 and the the last was 1 7/8. Mine is 2" step so I'm not in the normal category, never have been.

Mine has a longer pipe after the collector but the others had the bullet and a quiet pack from Tiger.
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KROC
Samba Member


Joined: February 20, 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Vancouver B.C.
KROC is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

Paul.H wrote:
KROC wrote:
I just removed an A1 1-5/8” sidewinder from a 2275 86b engine I have been running in my 63 T1 for a few years, I have always fought difficulty in tuning the low rpm cruise 2500-3500 rpm area regardless of venturi size it worked best with 37mm vents Heads are 44x37.5 extensively ported it should easily handle 42mm vents, it also is the only engine I have ever built that had a low rpm light load detonation ping... 9.7:1 comp on 94
The engine has my tried and tested italian IDA’s I have had for ever, I tried about 4 different ignition systems and advance curves.
Above 4000 rpm it pulled OK ish

I swapped on an A1 lowdown 1-3/4” Merge with 3” dynomax muffler. The engine is an entirely different animal now! And NO PING any longer , responds wayyy better to jetting, and flat out hauls like it should. next will be putting Doug Berg 40-44 venturies and re jetting

So for this particular engine displacement and combo the side winder is a no go. I wish I had a 1-5/8” conventional Merge on hand to try as I have also build many other fairly high strung 2275’s with regular old conventional style 1-5/8” Merged headers with Turbo muffler with no ill side effects like the side winder showed , so i think I will just keep the side winders for smaller lower state of tune engines. I do love the way they fit and hide the muffler.


Was that the sidewinder with or without muffler ? Your combo sounds like a race motor that's been choked off with a street muffler. Your initial 37mm vents will choke it down to 165hp and then there's an 86b right in the middle of it that's not a good combo and you had the issues associated with bad combos. The final set up with bigger vents and bigger exhaust is where it should have been at the planning stage saved yourself a lot of cash and hours


Hi yes the 1-5/8” sidewinder has the standard issue muffler from A1,
LOL, I wouldn't call this anywhere near a race motor detuned, its a cookie cutter relatively normal 2275 combo that I have been building for decades....as previously mentioned it would have been fine with a conventional 1-5/8” merge and muffler, ( Even better with the 1-3/4” thats now living on it )
The purpose of trying the 1-5/8” side winder was primarily as a test for myself as I have never really used them up until a few years ago as some customers had been requesting them, Granted most of those builds were smaller and/or milder combinations I can get them pulling through the entire RPM range well.. Yes you are correct in that it should have had bigger vents and header from the get go however I wanted to see what the limits were for myself, so no waste of time or money,...No more of a waste of time than the testing increments you are performing yourself., If we had all the answers none of the testing would be necessary would it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul.H
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
Paul.H is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

The street motor v race motor debacle
Basically how I see it is that a street motor spends most of it's time below 5000rpm so you use parts that work well in that range and don't use any parts that detract from that range. The problems arise with these hybrid motors where the owner wants both or a good compromise well that's where skill and knowledge come into it and it's not that easy if you get one thing wrong you end up at best with a nothing burger or at worst a sh1t sandwich.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
UK Luke 72
Samba Member


Joined: September 07, 2011
Posts: 2867
Location: Little Britain
UK Luke 72 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

ivkings4 wrote:
I have no dip from the Sidewinder. We have put them on 3 engines in the last 4 months and no issues with those engines, They all had A1 exhaust, one was 1 5/8 one was 1 3/4 and the the last was 1 7/8. Mine is 2" step so I'm not in the normal category, never have been.

Mine has a longer pipe after the collector but the others had the bullet and a quiet pack from Tiger.


If I remember rightly, your dyno pull didn't start until 4k did it?
I wonder if you have the same dip, you just missed it.
_________________
2276 Beetle build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670744&highlight=2276+beetle+daily
2276 EFI Conversion https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=689172
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
k@rlos
Samba Member


Joined: October 04, 2012
Posts: 485
Location: Suffolk, England
k@rlos is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

I’ve got an A1 1 5/8” sidewinder with a twin tube muffler or race bullet depending on my mood 😅 and I’ve never had this dip either.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
UK Luke 72
Samba Member


Joined: September 07, 2011
Posts: 2867
Location: Little Britain
UK Luke 72 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

k@rlos wrote:
I’ve got an A1 1 5/8” sidewinder with a twin tube muffler or race bullet depending on my mood 😅 and I’ve never had this dip either.


You'd never know without it on a dyno.
_________________
2276 Beetle build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670744&highlight=2276+beetle+daily
2276 EFI Conversion https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=689172
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul.H
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
Paul.H is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:07 am    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

It can be a problem doing power runs with carbs as you can't hit full throttle without stalling unless the rpm is high enough and the bigger the carbs the worse it gets. The worst I had was a Holley 4 barrel draw through turbo which would only handle full throttle at about 4k. An Efi motor can handle full throttle as low as 500rpm and can be tuned at very low rpm full throttle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
k@rlos
Samba Member


Joined: October 04, 2012
Posts: 485
Location: Suffolk, England
k@rlos is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Sidewinder 'Dip' Reply with quote

UK Luke 72 wrote:
k@rlos wrote:
I’ve got an A1 1 5/8” sidewinder with a twin tube muffler or race bullet depending on my mood 😅 and I’ve never had this dip either.


You'd never know without it on a dyno.


I’ve had it on the dyno.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I do take dynos with a pinch of salt though as I could take it a different dyno the next day and make 10hp more or 20hp less. Used it as a tool to get the AFR dialled in, now I’ve got a wideband so won’t ever bother with a rolling road again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 4 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.