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ccowx Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2015 Posts: 661 Location: Whitehorse Yukon
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 10:52 am Post subject: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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I am curious if there is likely any value to an upgraded induction set up on a basically stock engine.
The engine:
-AE code 1600 dp engine, stock cam, heads, valve train, etc.
-1-3/8" header with QP muffler, properly set up for manifold heat.
-Bosch SVDA distributor with functioning vac advance and slightly faster timing.
-Free flowing air cleaner, with proper stand off.
Induction choices:
A) CB super stock intake center section and a Solex 34-3 with a 28.5mm venturi. Re-jetted of course!
B) Stock Solex 34-3 with richer main jet and stock DP intake.
The car is a 70 Beetle and will be used as a second/third vehicle while my kid is home for the summer.
What do you think, go stock or try for a few more horses? Not sure if the stock cam will limit it anyway and I am just looking to lose mileage. The engine is just a convenience, it has an 1835 out for freshening up and going back in later this summer.
Thanks!
Chris |
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madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5292 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 3:00 am Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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Twin 40 IDF's _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12714 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 4:38 am Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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That would work in July and August, the rest of the year they would be a pain in the butt! Hard starting and jet changes as the weather got cold. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7213 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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gorbur Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2010 Posts: 187 Location: West of Calgary
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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I fiddled with your choice "B" for a season on my stock 73 Ghia. Cold temps were the issue. Jetting could get it close but not consistent in the range of -10C to 30C. As oprn says a pain. Tried different thermostats etc as well. Personally wouldn't do the faster timing.
Ended up switching to 2x 34 ICT's. Worked great for 5 years. No issues in temps either. Slight performance increase and fuel economy stayed the same. _________________ 73 - Ghia Cabriolet, currently under resto
76 - Type1, 1776, full restomod |
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ccowx Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2015 Posts: 661 Location: Whitehorse Yukon
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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It seems that there is some sort of recurring comments about cold weather operations. Jetting a bit richer in winter is not uncommon and fair enough. Are you saying that if it's rich enough to start easily then it ends up rich at running temperature?
As for the timing, what I meant is that the rate of advance has been made faster. it is now 25 degrees at 3000 rpms. Initial will be around 7 deg BTDC and total around 32. What would be the problem with that?
If anyone remembers some of my earlier posts, cold weather operations are a priority for me. Given where I live that is not unreasonable. However, this engine is probably only going to be used for a few months this summer, so not an issue in the short term.
As always, thanks for the input! This is basically what I call a "sweep the garage floor" engine build. The beetle has an 1835 with a few upgrades that will be freshened up and put back in later this summer. This is just an engine to keep it on the road for a few months while it's REAL engine is getting worked on.
Thanks!
Chris |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12714 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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I was referring to the twin Webers. Off the shelf Webers today do not give satisfactory year around drivability. If you are just looking to get it running for a couple summer months that is different.
And yes if your mixture is fat enough to start easily and run well cold it will be too rich once warmed up. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7213 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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I must admit that it took me roughly 20 years to figure it out. On the other hand it was not a top priority. VW themselves were pretty close. But I AM kinda amazed that so few northenerns know how to improve the cold start apart from installing oil heaters and the likes. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5292 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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I live on the Polar Equator for crying out loud, I have no issues in cold weather with my 40 Idf's on my bus , just have to warm it up before you take off( 'U Hosers" SNL Guy's) but I do park it in winter because of road salt _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3462 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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Thats the key, where you live determines idfs needing rejetting or help. Not everyone lives in cold climates. Winter in some areas juat means you gotta give it 2 pumps of gas before starting.
I like Alstrups choice though. Keep the choke and simple system. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12714 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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Mike, you live in the banana belt, don't deny it!
Ccowx is a long, long way north of you yet! In fact he is a long way north of me too. I know, I was up there once for my sister's wedding. It's so far north that I was allowed to sing at the reception and it did not create an international incident!
Could have though now that I think of it. Russia is closer than the USA was... _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12714 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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jpaull wrote: |
Thats the key, where you live determines idfs needing rejetting or help. Not everyone lives in cold climates. Winter in some areas juat means you gotta give it 2 pumps of gas before starting. |
Two pumps? Try again.. and again.. and again! If it's cold enough you will not be able physically pump it hard and fast enough to keep them running! I kid you not!
Without chokes the only way to get an engine running in REAL winter weather is to take the air cleaners off, hold your gloved hands (bare hands will freeze in seconds doing this) over the carbs and get the wife to work the starter and throttle. Be patient, it takes a while before you can take your hands off and you are going to need a hot cup of coffee to warm them up on after!
If you have never had to do this on a carb with no choke then you live in the afore mentioned banana belt. Period!
jpaull wrote: |
I like Alstrups choice though. Keep the choke and simple system. |
Yes! Weber made the best, most tunable cold start system I have ever worked with and trust me I have experianced many many others! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3462 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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oprn wrote: |
jpaull wrote: |
Thats the key, where you live determines idfs needing rejetting or help. Not everyone lives in cold climates. Winter in some areas juat means you gotta give it 2 pumps of gas before starting. |
Two pumps? Try again.. and again.. and again! If it's cold enough you will not be able physically pump it hard and fast enough to keep them running! I kid you not!
Without chokes the only way to get an engine running in REAL winter weather is to take the air cleaners off, hold your gloved hands (bare hands will freeze in seconds doing this) over the carbs and get the wife to work the starter and throttle. Be patient, it takes a while before you can take your hands off and you are going to need a hot cup of coffee to warm them up on after!
If you have never had to do this on a carb with no choke then you live in the afore mentioned banana belt. Period!
jpaull wrote: |
I like Alstrups choice though. Keep the choke and simple system. |
Yes! Weber made the best, most tunable cold start system I have ever worked with and trust me I have experianced many many others! |
No disagrements there. I live in cali where it rarely dips under 40 degrees. No need for chokes here.
I agree, in real winter weather it matters. |
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Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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Alstrup wrote: |
A) CB super stock intake center section and a Solex 34-3 with a 27 to 27,5mm venturi. Re-jetted of course! |
Have you gotten the preheat to work on one? _________________ Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1416
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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ccowx wrote: |
It seems that there is some sort of recurring comments about cold weather operations. Jetting a bit richer in winter is not uncommon and fair enough. Are you saying that if it's rich enough to start easily then it ends up rich at running temperature? |
The dual port w/ 34PICT3 carb in my '67 ran stinkin' rich all winter. Can't say that's good.
Fouled plugs can't make it easier to start.
oprn wrote: |
jpaull wrote: |
Thats the key, where you live determines idfs needing rejetting or help. Not everyone lives in cold climates. Winter in some areas juat means you gotta give it 2 pumps of gas before starting. |
Two pumps? Try again.. and again.. and again! If it's cold enough you will not be able physically pump it hard and fast enough to keep them running! I kid you not!
Without chokes the only way to get an engine running in REAL winter weather is to take the air cleaners off, hold your gloved hands (bare hands will freeze in seconds doing this) over the carbs and get the wife to work the starter and throttle. Be patient, it takes a while before you can take your hands off and you are going to need a hot cup of coffee to warm them up on after! |
These "fuel injection" guys forget how bad it sucks tryin' to start an old car below zero.
Fahrenheit.
By the 1980s I was driving a '74 Beetle and working on a ski mountain. I'd frequently get off work after midnight. Go in at 10 below or so, come out at 20 below. Choke on my 34PICT3 worked fine. Getting the SOB started was a challenge, anyway.
Trick was to "borrow" the large cast iron skillet we kept on the wall for decoration. Fill the skillet full of hot coals from the fireplace. Shove it under the motor. Just make sure the car isn't parked on deep packed snow. Your skillet will melt its way to the center of the Earth, never to be seen again.
I've done it with charcoal as well.
Caveat: Glowing coals only, no flame. Grilling a VW is just like grilling a steak.
I'd watch a half hour of late night TV with the skillet warming the underside of my engine.
While it may not sound like the brightest move for obvious reasons, it beats walkin' especially at 20 below in the middle of the night.
You can warm your hands over your Hot VW when it catches fire.
KIDDING.
Might be a good reason to take care of any leaks before it gets cold again.
Another extreme cold weather trick is to drain all the oil while the motor is warm. If it's 20 below outside and 65 inside a couple quarts of fresh oil will be 85 degrees warmer than the temperature outside.
Run hot water over your couple quarts of oil. Figure 100 degree fresh oil, 20 below ambient temperature... as far as your engine is concerned it's starting with oil that's 120 degrees warmer than it is outside.
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12714 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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The VW dealers here always sold and installed the 120 V oil pan heater on new cars. It was just a normal part of the pre-delivery service. They worked like a charm too. We always added a battery blanket. With the two plugged in you were good to go right down past -40.
The problem I always had and am still having with the electric automatic chokes is that if you set them for say -15* then they did not choke enough for -30. If you set it for -30 then it would choke for far too long at -15. They were always a compromise but still far better than the nothing we get today on aftermarket carbs.
I love my cable operated manual chokes on my old Webers! I get to set them for best action for every start! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6981 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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Now, I only live in the southwest in the southern most chain of the Rocky Mountains at 8000. It snows and get cold, but not as cold as Buffalo. I can honestly say that I have zero issues starting my engine with IDF40s in the winter. Now, I do use a Kats VW-15 sump heater, which I guess would be similar to a cast iron skillet full of coals. There is also zero issues driving in cold temps. _________________ __________
71 Westy build
Adventure thread
65 Deluxe Build
63 Deluxe Build |
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Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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richparker wrote: |
I have zero issues starting my engine with IDF40s in the winter. |
Which makes sense; one carb per barrel will give it enough fuel, big enough for plenty of air. The heads transfer heat fast enough to the carbs through the "short" manifolds that you're more than fine without the preheat air intake.
Do you still have/use that really cool oil heater? _________________ Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6981 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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Brian wrote: |
Do you still have/use that really cool oil heater? |
Yes, its a Kats VW-15 engine heater. I have one on my bus and one on my beetle. It is excellent and makes a huge difference on cold starts. I was lucky enough to find both of mine online as NOS units. The first one I bought was $35 and the one I just bought for my beetle was $75. Even at $75, it was a good purchase. Heres my 2109 in my beetle idling at 10° just before we took off to the ski resort. My beetle is the ski monster!
Link
Even the very old Kaddies in the beetle have no issues with the cold. You just need to be patient and let everything work. _________________ __________
71 Westy build
Adventure thread
65 Deluxe Build
63 Deluxe Build |
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3552 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Inductioin choices on stock 1600 dp |
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If you have to drive a classic VW in -15 or -30 weather I feel really bad for you 🥶 |
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