| Author |
Message |
Silverghost500
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018
Posts: 1086
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:08 am Post subject: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
 |
|
Daydreaming of future drivetrain swap options I did a couple of searches in my area (Southeast US) for good available donors. I’m finding fewer and fewer Subaru donors in my area due to high mileage, or already blown engines, which leads me to think about JDM Subaru Engines.
What are the gotcha’s of buying a JDM engine vs. buying a used engine and having it rebuilt?
What’s the chances (and costs estimates) of having a complete harness with ECU built up for a JDM since it likely won’t have those components?
What are the risks of a JDM not fitting the available adaption kit hardware, especially when paired with an automatic Vanagon transmission?
I know a lot of conversions are now with the 2.5 motors, but is there seems to be a good supply of JDM H6 motors. Are there just as many available conversion parts for the H6 as there are for the 2.5 4 cylinders?
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17118
Location: Retired South Florida
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:27 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
I've seen a couple JDM engines and they weren't suitable for boat anchors. I would really be sure who you are dealing with.
To me, traveling in an antique, parts availability is most important. Standalone engine management systems can likely run any engine you want, but there is a big learning curve.
For reliability, I want something that is reliable, easily maintained, and not dependent on one person taking my call.
_________________
☮️ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9605
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
| MarkWard wrote: |
| I've seen a couple JDM engines and they weren't suitable for boat anchors. I would really be sure who you are dealing with. |
I had a terrible experience with a JDM seller that I can wholeheartedly advise "do not buy".
JDM Engine Depot in New Jersey.
They claimed all engines are pre-tested and qualified to be low-miles.
They did not test the engine that they sent me.
Nobody would test it seeing the oil-caked exhaust manifold.
But they did not even look.
There's no point in shipping it to a customer other than knowing there's little the customer can do about it.
It dids have two old spark plugs and two new plugs..... 
They shipped it anyway.
Then when I complained.....they pretended that they checked it first, where the clearly the very first time they saw any details about about the engine condition was my videos.
JDM Engine Depot fought long and hard with VISA and had a trick for my every move.
They were very experienced in this and it was easy for them to keep the upper hand
because I knowingly purchased a used engine.
Here's one of their tricks - JDM Engine Depot kept asking me to send videos of what I found, pretending to be interested, dragging it out.
When I said I was going to contest the sale with VISA, JDM Engine Depot said "go ahead!"
They don't care because they have good tricks.
When it went to the VISA dispute, VISA provides no options to send videos and the reviewer said they don't watch videos.
JDM Depot knew this and kept repeating that 'customer offers no proof'.
They never once acknowledged th at I sent videos, which basically, to VISA implies that that I'm a liar, in stating that I sent videos to Engine Depot.
I spent more than a day making videos to show them the engine was no good.
Anyway the junk core sat in my driveway for 5 months, because I had to keep it in good condition in case the refund became contingent upon 'return'.
I eventually 'won' after inputting between 20-40 hours of hard work into defending myself.
Note that every phonecall to VISA is at least an hour of hold and some calls drop.
Ten calls is 10 hours of hold right there.
From my videos they knew it was barely worth paying $250 shipping to get it back.
They did not arrange to get it it back.
So I sold it for $200 as a core to NorthWesty.
I ended up buying another very nice 2011 JDM from https://www.foreignengines.com which is local Seattle - where I could LOOK at the engine.
All the EJ25s I saw there, were very nice, clearly low miles, and the people there cared.
It's running now and I think it's good... (Only have 500 miles so far)
I think you could order a JDM from https://www.foreignengines.com and have confidence.
I talked to one pro Subaru engine mechanic who said he has bought at least 50 engines from them and was always satisfied.
But again,,,, I only installed the JDM 2011 longblock into my USA 2007 EJ25 conversion..
I did not use any of the JDM systems that the OP proposes in this thread.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12005
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:11 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
If you scour insurance auctions you can sometimes find low mileage cars that were hit. Stay away from a car hit in the front(engine damage) or a rollover(motor starved for oil while running). This way you get the wiring harness, ECU and all associated parts.
The JDM motor route makes most sense if you are just looking for a longblock. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
11BC2
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2017
Posts: 495
Location: Cool, California
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
| Silverghost500 wrote: |
Daydreaming of future drivetrain swap options I did a couple of searches in my area (Southeast US) for good available donors. I’m finding fewer and fewer Subaru donors in my area due to high mileage, or already blown engines, which leads me to think about JDM Subaru Engines.
What are the gotcha’s of buying a JDM engine vs. buying a used engine and having it rebuilt?
What’s the chances (and costs estimates) of having a complete harness with ECU built up for a JDM since it likely won’t have those components?
What are the risks of a JDM not fitting the available adaption kit hardware, especially when paired with an automatic Vanagon transmission?
I know a lot of conversions are now with the 2.5 motors, but is there seems to be a good supply of JDM H6 motors. Are there just as many available conversion parts for the H6 as there are for the 2.5 4 cylinders? |
The EZ30 H6 engine will develop cracks in the heads, from the combustion chamber through to the water jacket. The later EZ36 is more robust; nitrited crankshaft, better head castings/design.
In general, "very good" JDM engines simply don't exist. You might get lucky, but I seldom see them working out.
Since I own a Subaru shop, maybe I should start offering rebuilding services for Subaru engines? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
i will NEVER understand the appeal of "JDM" shit and i'm a subaru guy.
bottom line is we in the USA can not get any JDM parts easily. you can't even get wiring diagrams for them. SOA won't let it happen. (i suppose if you wanted to cruise Japanese sites for info you may come up with something)
i mean honestly, a 2.5 short block from the dealer is like 1700 bux my cost for a BRAND NEW unit.
everyone i know that has fallen into that JDM trap has been burnt pretty bad. juice ain't worth the squeeze with that stuff unless you are buying something exotic (like a whole car)
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
space
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017
Posts: 673
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:01 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
I have a JDM 2.5
No complaints
Works with KEP's adapter plate
Drive By Wire
I dont recall the harness being a problem
Busaru does the JDM harnesses
T
Edit: I believe the H6's in general are not very reliable
Also ur adding a lot more HP to a trans tht was built for approx 90hp (212hp?)
_________________
82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Silverghost500
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018
Posts: 1086
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:38 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
Thanks for the replies everyone. Sounds like if you can visit the engine in person and run some tests it might be a good deal. Looks like if a resell vendor was on the up and up they'd provide a document with the serial number of the engine with cylinder compression tests.
Looking at a couple of insurance sites and Copart there are some vehicles in my area, and a lot of them have front end damage. It's looking like it may be better to buy one of these vehicles to strip off all the good bits. What should one expect to spend on one of these vehicles?
I didn't realize until skills@eurocarsplus post that a new OEM 2.5 short block could be purchased for that price. Are complete cylinder heads as reasonably priced?
I had wondered why it seemed the H6 conversions dropped off the radar. If they have the cracks and reliability issues might as well stay with the OEM drivetrain.
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
11BC2
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2017
Posts: 495
Location: Cool, California
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:50 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
| Subaru does not sell "complete" cylinder heads; you have to purchase a bare head and install the valves, springs, seals, etc, yourself. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2015
Posts: 704
Location: Berkeley Ca
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:43 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
| I would have heads rebuilt and put them on new block. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9605
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
That sounds more feasible when you compare $1700 (jobber price) to $2,200 JDM price.
What about $450 of new cylinder head studs? Buy?
How much do heads cost to rebuild properly? $1000?
For me I could see it marching right up to $4,000 (or more) and months delay.
In my case I was trying to capture the end of Van season 2020, but ended up with the months delay anyway.
That said, at this point, I'd rather have even a $5,000 NEW build with forged pistons, than an unknown $2200 JDM.
But at the time I made the decision I thought the long-block exchange would be driving again in about 4 days.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
11BC2
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2017
Posts: 495
Location: Cool, California
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
| Sodo wrote: |
What about $450 of new cylinder head studs? Buy? |
ALWAYS replace the head bolts. I use ARP 260-4702 on the 99-> EJ25s.
| Sodo wrote: |
| How much do heads cost to rebuild properly? $1000? |
The machine I've been using for 15yrs charges about $600 to go through the SOHC heads, including cleaning/testing, cut/grind seats & valves, resurface, and new seals.
| Sodo wrote: |
That said, at this point, I'd rather have even a $5,000 NEW build with forged pistons, than an unknown $2200 JDM.
But at the time I made the decision I thought the long-block exchange would be driving again in about 4 days. |
Forged pistons are really not necessary on the non turbo EJ engines. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17118
Location: Retired South Florida
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
In my part of Florida, once a vehicle hits the junkyard, it is there to stay. You'd likely need to find an online auction selling wrecked cars for insurance companies etc. Your state may be different.
_________________
☮️ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Silverghost500
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018
Posts: 1086
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:23 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
In Georgia it looks like you can get a complete wrecked vehicle, at least from Copart. If there's a vehicle in their lot in the city next to mine they'll deliver for a reasonable fee. That might be the better way to go.
@11BC2, thanks for the additional info on the cylinder heads. Are cylinder heads for Subaru engines prone to warping, or are they fairly reliable? I'd have to see if I can find a machine shop familiar with Subaru heads in my area.
That's also smart insurance replacing the head bolts! I use to see a lot of people in the British car world trying to overhaul engines using the original head bolts/studs, and wondering why they kept blowing head gaskets!
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mikemtnbike
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2795
Location: North Carolina
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:43 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
Silverghost- there has to be place like this shop in Asheville https://www.facebook.com/FlatAMP/ somewhere in the ATL. If I ever decided go the Subaru route, doing so is enough of an investment that I'd be spending the extra dollar to use this shop to do my motor work. I'd suggest looking for something in the ATL that is similar if you're not wanting to do the budget timing belt and head gasket update only swap.
Just my uninformed opinion.
\
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled  https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9605
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:22 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
| Silverghost500 wrote: |
| That's also smart insurance replacing the head bolts! |
I doubt it's the strength of the bolts, the Subaru bolts are huge.
The Subaru method is huge bolts screwing into the very fine-thread aluminum case.
There's a lot of thread engagement, consequently the possibility for thread friction,
and you want consistent stretch in all 16 bolts.....
For the most reliable head-gasket condition.
The $480 ARP EJ25 head stud kit is studs with fine-thread nuts.
Torquing oiled nuts at the head seems more reliable and consistent than turning bolts into the aluminum case.
If I was 'disturbing EJ25 heads' I'd have to use this stud kit.....
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:17 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
| 11BC2 wrote: |
| Subaru does not sell "complete" cylinder heads; you have to purchase a bare head and install the valves, springs, seals, etc, yourself. |
the castings are sold bare, which is odd but they are not very expensive in the big scheme of things.
ARP head studs are a waste of $$ for a stock build imho. turbo or something way over powered....sure
aftermarket head bolts are a joke. the center bolts have a bigger washer for more clamping surface. almost all of the aftermarket ones i have seen don't have this.
the shop i use is about 1k out the door for heads. full valve job, guides as needed 100% cleaned...the works.
by the time i get a S/B the heads and everything from the dealer i'm about 35-3800 for a fully dressed 2.5 (that price swings depending on buying timing covers etc)
having spent 5K on a 1904 for my 71 bus...the subaru engine makes me feel like i stole something.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Crankey
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 2658
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:14 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
I have a jdm H6. '06 engine from a can bus car. At the time canbus engines needed stand alone aftermarket ecu. It's extra work and cost setting it up but when it's done right it works well. Eats your transaxel right away if it hasn't been included in the swap upgrade, but if it's been dealt with and you don't abuse it it all works. But again if your not able to deal with electricals you'll need to spend on that and either way that ecu and harness is its own thing as opposed to stock ecu's which more folks can deal with
The earlier svx H6 is a more well known path of conversion.
Overall the 4 cylinder has a lot wider user base and therefore more folks can help with it either advising your diy install here or parts availability in the aftermarket.
Concider asking the conversion kit suppliers what engines they support and why. They have reasons, they need to stand behind their kit so if they don't support late model H6 it's probably due to it being a pita for too many customers ?
If I hadn't put my vehicle in storage and lost the ecu to mice, I may have it dialed in by now.
But the ecu is dead to my estimation. The harness looks fine...but I'm over it to the tune of a whole new swap to a 2.5.
It was fun, big learning experience, no regrets really. It would cost less to get a new ecu and have that installed and tuned, but I'd still end up with the less options of support in the aftermarket in terms of parts and knowledge. I think anyway. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pchill2
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 405
Location: Georgia
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 10:13 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
@Silverghost500
Seems to me that the JDM Subaru engines are pretty over priced considering the risks associated with not having any service history.
If you ever consider other swap options, come over to Augusta and check out my van.
_________________
87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Silverghost500
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018
Posts: 1086
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 11:54 am Post subject: Re: JDM Subaru Engines In 2021 |
|
|
Now that I've had a cool down period I personally would not go JDM after what I've learned about Subaru engines since the original post. To me there's equal risk of buying one as there is a high mileage engine state side. If the engine has issues you're going to be out quite a bit of money to get it put back to right.
New OEM Subaru short block, rebuilt cylinder heads, new sensors, fuel system components would be the way I'd go if I were to go the Subaru conversion route at this time.
@Pchill2, we'll get together soon so I can look at your K24 conversion!
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
