Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic

[Gratsoy]

Are Break-in oils recommended for a rebuild?

I'm rebuilding my stock '67 1500 - I see Brad Penn offers 30W break-in oil.
I'll be breaking in the engine when outside temps are around 12-15 Celsius.

For normal use my car mostly gets run in the summer so temps range from 15-32 Celsius outdoors and the car gets lots of highway driving. Is 10W30 still recommended?

I was originally running Rotella 15W40 when I first got the car. I rebuilt the engine and continued to use that until I pulled the engine a few months ago. I wasn't totally happy with the wear on the bearings and wonder if maybe I am not choosing the right oil.

[wcfvw69]

[vugbug68]

It’s been 4 years since I’ve posted on this topic, I’ve racked up another 30k on the 2109 in the bug, still waiting for it to explode

I’ve run Rotella, Delo, and VR1 without any problems and similar results
_________________
71 Super - Backroad Thrasher
66 Corvair - Weekend Cruiser
90 4 Runner - Muddin

[Glenn]

[vugbug68]

[merlinj79]

Hi guys,

Been gone for a few years, fixing to get the bus registered again.

I always ran 20w50 due to summer mountain driving in socal. The motor is low mileage on a 2003 rebuild.

Sounds like the conventional wisdom is now 10 psi/1000 rpm. Anybody know what gear & mph corresponds to rpm? My tires are larger than stock, so it won't be precise, but curious as to ballpark. Don't have a tach installed.

Considering M1 synth or penngrade... I like the penn because it has the additives. Anybody care to hazard how much better a full synth would be, assuming I throw in some additive?

TIA
_________________
Rick
"Pumpkin II"
Stock 2L FI '77 Westy
CA Smog Stuff

[merlinj79]

Did some more research, going to try Amsoil Z-Rod 10W-30.

With tach/dwell meter, saw about 25psi at 1000 rpm, but the meter doesn't go higher than 1200 rpm. Presumably 25psi @ 1000 rpm extrapolates out to 50 psi @ 2000, 75 psi @ 3000.

Will probably install 10W-40 if I do mountains in the summer.
_________________
Rick
"Pumpkin II"
Stock 2L FI '77 Westy
CA Smog Stuff

[Wildthings]

[scottyrocks]

Okay, so I actually finally read all 232 pages (okay, call me a glutton for punishment], and the most important information, afaic, came from this link:

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

so that, most of all, made this thread a worthwhile (re]read.

This blog has been mentioned here a number of times, and summarized very well a few pages back by @Lingwendil.

540 RAT, the writer of the linked blog, in addition to having a bunch of credentials and practical experience, bases his writings on scientific experimentation. It also makes a lot of sense. My comments, below, are based on the blog, and his scientific testing, in particular. For further details, see the blog.

When attempting to choose a motor oil, the amount of zinc can be disregarded which can be kind of hard to believe considering the importance put on it here. Instead, look at the load carrying capability/film strength/shear resistance to breakdown psi rating (read the link) which is dependent on a motor oil's additive package, of which zinc is only a small part.

Talking about zinc or ZDDP by itself is akin to talking about any single ingredient in a complicated food recipe being more important than the whole recipe. The amount of zinc in an oil was not a determining factor in the blog rankings, as the zinc levels were high and low all through the rankings. What is most important is the particular additive package in any given motor oil, which includes zinc. This, and viscosity, are what determine the best oil for a vehicle and application.

You don't need to choose a needlessly thick oil to get more ZDDP because you don't need more ZDDP. Modern additive packages take care of the job attributed to ZDDP. There is no 'right' amount of zinc anymore.

The now decreased quantity of zinc/phosphorus has been replaced with alternate anti-wear components that are equal to, or better than zinc/phosphorus. This is borne out by the results of 540 Rat's scientific experiments on the load carrying capability/film strength/shear resistance breakdown points of over 200 oils, many of which are available today. And many oils with what so many here consider the proper amount of zinc were severely inferior to those with lesser amounts of zinc, as far as the ultimate strength of the oil film between parts when all the liquid oil has been squeezed out, iow, during cold starts when all that is on critical parts is an oil film, which is when the additive package, of which ZDDP is a small part, to varying degrees, does its thing, so to speak.

Adding zinc/ZDDP additives to motor oil is unnecessary, and often harmful. Many here have stated that doing so throws off the carefully derived (by oil engineers/chemists) additive packages in motor oils. And that is true. Some will say things like well, I have added such-and-such ZDDP additive to my oil and have had no problems. At best, the oil's anti-wear/anti-shear capabilities were good enough on their own to not be negatively affected by the addition of outside chemicals to cause harm to the engine they were put in. In RAT's tests, tested additives added to oil often dropped the effective psi rating significantly.

Rather than using a snake oil (additives), choose a quality oil from the top sections of the list, the amount of zinc be damned.

Soon after beginning to read this thread, I was all but sold on Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 10W-30 for my Beetle. But after reading the blog, I have decided against different versions of this oil, which were rated 208, 211, 213, 250, and 254 (their 30 wt break-in oil) of 264 tested. Will Brad Penn oils protect a flat tappet engine with room to spare before it fails? Probably, but there are 207 better choices out there (actually a few less, disregarding tested oil additives, and diesel oils, which are also not optimal).

And as far as diesel oils – whether they are okay for gasoline engines or not, all of them were middle-of-the-pack finishers. Why choose one, then, when there are so many better gasoline engine oils available with much higher psi ratings?

Valvoline VR1 is a favored oil here. The test data shows outstanding film strength/load carrying capability/anti wear ratings, and it has sufficient zinc to keep happy those who think that zinc is the be-all and end-all of engine protection, but it is still quite far down the list in 64th place. Still a win-win, though, for both science and the zinc-zombies.

As I don't know the age of my engine, as in whether it has had any sort of rebuild before I got the car, I made my own list of the top ten dino or blended oils on the list (all either 5W-30 or 10W-30) that are available in my area, that offer the greatest load carrying capability/film strength/shear resistance to breakdown ratings, and will choose the highest one I can find locally. All of them greatly exceed the needs of my stock engine, and most engines, in fact, and if I can purchase them locally, and at competitive prices, why not go for the best?

The top finisher of all was 5W30 Quaker State 'Full Synthetic' (abbreviated QSFS), API SP, with a measured 152,674 psi of anti-wear resistance, way above everything else. Valvoline's top finisher, not a VR1, protected to 123,470 psi. The top VR1, 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle), finished in 64th place, and protected to 103,505 psi. Brad Penn? The top Brad Penn tested oil protected to 72,003 psi and finished in 208th place.

Do yourselves a favor. Look at 540 RAT's Motor Oil Engineering Test Data/Oil Test Data Blog, which is the link, above, as well as the rest of the oil related sections before choosing an oil for your car – any car.
_________________
“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch'

[Wildthings]

[oprn]

Oil with 6000 miles on it is DONE! Dump it, recycle it whatever. The additive package has expired and the oil is badly contaminated. We are not running 10 gallons like a big highway tractor, it's only 2.5 quarts. Don't be so cheap, buy new oil!
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[Wildthings]

[Bonesberg55]

The brand of oil is more important than viscosity. Back in the 70s I did an oil & filter change on my 427 Sting Ray using a straight weight(30W) major brand oil replacing another major brand of the same weight. My oil pressure dropped significantly from 25 psi at idle to about 10 psi at idle. When I revved up the engine to about 2500 rpm I could only get about 25 psi where I had previously gotten 60 psi. I have not used that brand oil since and never had a pressure problem from any other major brand. I won't mention the brand but it begins with a "P" and ends with a "L".

[creative native]

To Mr. Bluesky in Florida, who was asking about what oil to use in the south, I stay in western North Carolina and have been using fully synthetic 15w50 for many years, in my current '79 Westfalia, in my '74 Sun Bug and in my former Vanagon Westfalia. I've never had any complaints at all about this oil. I've also ran fully synthetic 75w90 gear oil as well. The difference has been amazing. My VWs have ran much more smoothly and quietly. Someone else suggested 20w50 and I used to use that grade in my many other past VWs prior to fully synthetic 15w50 and neither had a complaint about that grade of oil either.
_________________
"The holy land is everywhere." ~ Black Elk
1979 Westfalia P27, California FI emissions spec. 100% VW fleet: '79 Westfalia, 2013 Touareg Lux (Toffee Brown/Cornsilk Beige), 2005 Passat GLX.

[scottyrocks]

[Wildthings]

The lubricants that were available when these machines were built were very sorry by today's standard, as was the fuel. Changing the oil frequently, like at 1500 miles was pretty necessary if you wanted to keep a Type 1 engine running for very long, especially if you ran multigrade oil and went with high octane fuel. Not having an oil filter was definitely an engine killer as well. I saw a lot of damage way back when in engines that only had 20-30K miles on them. Today you can run your oil ten or even twenty times as long and not expect to see much of any wear at 150K miles. Most of the engine damage I have seen in the last 30 years was caused by catastrophic failures like loss of coolant or lubricant and not by normal wear. It is not uncommon to pull down an engine with 200K miles on the clock and see almost no wear at all.

Most of the engines I own, VW and otherwise, came with full flow oil filters and on my Type 1 engine I have added one. Well filtered oil combined with an effective crankcase ventilation system, and synthetic oil allows for a very long effective oil life. I went to extended oil changes twenty to thirtyish years ago depending on the rig and now the engine in my Dodge truck has 32 years on its rebuild, and the one in my Toyota Land Cruiser has forty, while several of my VW engines have gotten very high miles on them before dying of non lubricant related problems like a dropped valve seat on my Type 4 1800 with 250K on the clock and a stretched rod bolt on a 91 Vanagon WBXer at about 180K.

Tencentlife had a very good treatise about why it is wasteful and not beneficial to change the oil too frequently, I will leave it up to others to search his old post up.

[jlinares]

What do you think it's the best oil for 1300 engine? Where I live temperature ranges between 9°C to 20°C, 48°F to 68°F.
I was looking at brands like liqui molly and Mobil 1.

[frenchroast]

[jlinares]

[67rustavenger]