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New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started
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JCBond
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
VWFIXER wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
I'm not an FI expert, but I know just enough to either get me in trouble, or out of it.


It is easier to get into something than to get out of it.
– Donald Rumsfeld


No truer words could be typed in this circumstance.

Hello monkey, can you keep the cash drawer dry please? Laughing


////

Squareback dude, a fuel injection system sitting 27 years with fuel in it isn't a great start. From fuel tank to engine exhaust valves is suspect. And to ad insult to injury it was probably sitting somewhere else not running before that garage. and the icing on the cake is the high probability that it had another issue that caused the original break down.. Laughing BTDT, in fact it's how I got my start bringing dead wagens back to life. Pretty nice car from the pictures, an easy guide to understand where in its life that car sits is this; This car currently titled, insured, running stoping with everything working as it should is probably selling for about 8,000. minus 1,000 as the core value, its probably going to take 7k to make it safe to drive with all the bells and whistles. Ive got about .27 cents in paypal ready to bet that nobody in the family has that kind of commitment for this car. Time and labor, plus parts.


I've rebuilt way worse cars than this. Just look at the link in my signature for my old 71 Notchback Krunchy for example. That car got a total rebuild. The big key is to make sure the ignition system is working, then shoot some satan fluid down it's throat and try to start it. I did that on my old 70 Squareback that had been sitting for 20+ years before I got it. It had a rod knock due to having dealer installed AC in Texas. See if it'll fire off. Listen closely for expensive noises, so you can tell if you're going to do an engine rebuild or not. Treat most anything you work on like a system, by this I mean when working on the brakes do all 4 corners and the Master cylinder, and possibly the lines. When doing the fuel system, start at the tank, and roto router the lines in the tunnel and flush them with carb cleaner. Replace ALL of the fuel hoses (25 feet), and use FI clamps. The charging system, new brushes in the generator, thru the voltage regulator and on to the fuse box. You need 14.1 to 14.5 volts for the FI to run. Anything less than 14.1 volts, replace the Voltage Regulator. Then work on the lighting system, replacing dead bulbs, and checking for power wires that are grounding out (blowing fuses). I only put it this way, as you want to fix it, but you also want any failures to happen in the driveway, rather than out on the road.
I've rebuilt cars in a year or less, but you really have to go thru them almost completely to know if you got everything. Now I have had a few weird things happen before, like a rabbit eat thru a brake light wire and cause the lights to not come on, or a tail light wire shut the engine off, because it was grounding out on the steel body, or a set of points jump up the post and not create any spark along side the freeway. Or a coil go bad causing a misfire a week before going on vacation that took me 3 days to find (carbed car).


I realized the fuel pump I got is only rated for 2 -4 PSI so I ordered another one. But I sprayed satan fluid in the throat and it doesn't try and fire. So I should go to the ignition system first right?
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

Blow up the Bentley Color wiring diagram to 11"x17" & have it laminated at Kinkos etc.
I also have 60" jumper wires with alligator clips for testing for continuity.
Test until you find the weak link.
FI runs good with a good mechanic behind it!
I'm on my 3rd new ignition switch in my 69.
They were only $30 bucks last time I bought one.
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VWFIXER
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
VWFIXER wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
I'm not an FI expert, but I know just enough to either get me in trouble, or out of it.


It is easier to get into something than to get out of it.
– Donald Rumsfeld


No truer words could be typed in this circumstance.

Hello monkey, can you keep the cash drawer dry please? Laughing


////

Squareback dude, a fuel injection system sitting 27 years with fuel in it isn't a great start. From fuel tank to engine exhaust valves is suspect. And to ad insult to injury it was probably sitting somewhere else not running before that garage. and the icing on the cake is the high probability that it had another issue that caused the original break down.. Laughing BTDT, in fact it's how I got my start bringing dead wagens back to life. Pretty nice car from the pictures, an easy guide to understand where in its life that car sits is this; This car currently titled, insured, running stoping with everything working as it should is probably selling for about 8,000. minus 1,000 as the core value, its probably going to take 7k to make it safe to drive with all the bells and whistles. Ive got about .27 cents in paypal ready to bet that nobody in the family has that kind of commitment for this car. Time and labor, plus parts.


I've rebuilt way worse cars than this. Just look at the link in my signature for my old 71 Notchback Krunchy for example. That car got a total rebuild. The big key is to make sure the ignition system is working, then shoot some satan fluid down it's throat and try to start it. I did that on my old 70 Squareback that had been sitting for 20+ years before I got it. It had a rod knock due to having dealer installed AC in Texas. See if it'll fire off. Listen closely for expensive noises, so you can tell if you're going to do an engine rebuild or not. Treat most anything you work on like a system, by this I mean when working on the brakes do all 4 corners and the Master cylinder, and possibly the lines. When doing the fuel system, start at the tank, and roto router the lines in the tunnel and flush them with carb cleaner. Replace ALL of the fuel hoses (25 feet), and use FI clamps. The charging system, new brushes in the generator, thru the voltage regulator and on to the fuse box. You need 14.1 to 14.5 volts for the FI to run. Anything less than 14.1 volts, replace the Voltage Regulator. Then work on the lighting system, replacing dead bulbs, and checking for power wires that are grounding out (blowing fuses). I only put it this way, as you want to fix it, but you also want any failures to happen in the driveway, rather than out on the road.
I've rebuilt cars in a year or less, but you really have to go thru them almost completely to know if you got everything. Now I have had a few weird things happen before, like a rabbit eat thru a brake light wire and cause the lights to not come on, or a tail light wire shut the engine off, because it was grounding out on the steel body, or a set of points jump up the post and not create any spark along side the freeway. Or a coil go bad causing a misfire a week before going on vacation that took me 3 days to find (carbed car).


What is Satan fluid?, I don't wanna know if its NSFW. Laughing

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

VWFIXER wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
VWFIXER wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
I'm not an FI expert, but I know just enough to either get me in trouble, or out of it.


It is easier to get into something than to get out of it.
– Donald Rumsfeld


No truer words could be typed in this circumstance.

Hello monkey, can you keep the cash drawer dry please? Laughing


////

Squareback dude, a fuel injection system sitting 27 years with fuel in it isn't a great start. From fuel tank to engine exhaust valves is suspect. And to ad insult to injury it was probably sitting somewhere else not running before that garage. and the icing on the cake is the high probability that it had another issue that caused the original break down.. Laughing BTDT, in fact it's how I got my start bringing dead wagens back to life. Pretty nice car from the pictures, an easy guide to understand where in its life that car sits is this; This car currently titled, insured, running stoping with everything working as it should is probably selling for about 8,000. minus 1,000 as the core value, its probably going to take 7k to make it safe to drive with all the bells and whistles. Ive got about .27 cents in paypal ready to bet that nobody in the family has that kind of commitment for this car. Time and labor, plus parts.


I've rebuilt way worse cars than this. Just look at the link in my signature for my old 71 Notchback Krunchy for example. That car got a total rebuild. The big key is to make sure the ignition system is working, then shoot some satan fluid down it's throat and try to start it. I did that on my old 70 Squareback that had been sitting for 20+ years before I got it. It had a rod knock due to having dealer installed AC in Texas. See if it'll fire off. Listen closely for expensive noises, so you can tell if you're going to do an engine rebuild or not. Treat most anything you work on like a system, by this I mean when working on the brakes do all 4 corners and the Master cylinder, and possibly the lines. When doing the fuel system, start at the tank, and roto router the lines in the tunnel and flush them with carb cleaner. Replace ALL of the fuel hoses (25 feet), and use FI clamps. The charging system, new brushes in the generator, thru the voltage regulator and on to the fuse box. You need 14.1 to 14.5 volts for the FI to run. Anything less than 14.1 volts, replace the Voltage Regulator. Then work on the lighting system, replacing dead bulbs, and checking for power wires that are grounding out (blowing fuses). I only put it this way, as you want to fix it, but you also want any failures to happen in the driveway, rather than out on the road.
I've rebuilt cars in a year or less, but you really have to go thru them almost completely to know if you got everything. Now I have had a few weird things happen before, like a rabbit eat thru a brake light wire and cause the lights to not come on, or a tail light wire shut the engine off, because it was grounding out on the steel body, or a set of points jump up the post and not create any spark along side the freeway. Or a coil go bad causing a misfire a week before going on vacation that took me 3 days to find (carbed car).


What is Satan fluid?, I don't wanna know if its NSFW. Laughing

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Starting fluid. That's what Tram calls it, and it seems to fit the bill. OP, yes, go thru the ignition system. I've had bad condensers pop up lately, and it didn't seem to matter if it was a Bosch condenser or a Standard brand, or someone's generic. It's really weird, in that things that never went bad before are going bad now.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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VWFIXER
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
VWFIXER wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
VWFIXER wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
I'm not an FI expert, but I know just enough to either get me in trouble, or out of it.


It is easier to get into something than to get out of it.
– Donald Rumsfeld


No truer words could be typed in this circumstance.

Hello monkey, can you keep the cash drawer dry please? Laughing


////

Squareback dude, a fuel injection system sitting 27 years with fuel in it isn't a great start. From fuel tank to engine exhaust valves is suspect. And to ad insult to injury it was probably sitting somewhere else not running before that garage. and the icing on the cake is the high probability that it had another issue that caused the original break down.. Laughing BTDT, in fact it's how I got my start bringing dead wagens back to life. Pretty nice car from the pictures, an easy guide to understand where in its life that car sits is this; This car currently titled, insured, running stoping with everything working as it should is probably selling for about 8,000. minus 1,000 as the core value, its probably going to take 7k to make it safe to drive with all the bells and whistles. Ive got about .27 cents in paypal ready to bet that nobody in the family has that kind of commitment for this car. Time and labor, plus parts.


I've rebuilt way worse cars than this. Just look at the link in my signature for my old 71 Notchback Krunchy for example. That car got a total rebuild. The big key is to make sure the ignition system is working, then shoot some satan fluid down it's throat and try to start it. I did that on my old 70 Squareback that had been sitting for 20+ years before I got it. It had a rod knock due to having dealer installed AC in Texas. See if it'll fire off. Listen closely for expensive noises, so you can tell if you're going to do an engine rebuild or not. Treat most anything you work on like a system, by this I mean when working on the brakes do all 4 corners and the Master cylinder, and possibly the lines. When doing the fuel system, start at the tank, and roto router the lines in the tunnel and flush them with carb cleaner. Replace ALL of the fuel hoses (25 feet), and use FI clamps. The charging system, new brushes in the generator, thru the voltage regulator and on to the fuse box. You need 14.1 to 14.5 volts for the FI to run. Anything less than 14.1 volts, replace the Voltage Regulator. Then work on the lighting system, replacing dead bulbs, and checking for power wires that are grounding out (blowing fuses). I only put it this way, as you want to fix it, but you also want any failures to happen in the driveway, rather than out on the road.
I've rebuilt cars in a year or less, but you really have to go thru them almost completely to know if you got everything. Now I have had a few weird things happen before, like a rabbit eat thru a brake light wire and cause the lights to not come on, or a tail light wire shut the engine off, because it was grounding out on the steel body, or a set of points jump up the post and not create any spark along side the freeway. Or a coil go bad causing a misfire a week before going on vacation that took me 3 days to find (carbed car).


What is Satan fluid?, I don't wanna know if its NSFW. Laughing

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Starting fluid. That's what Tram calls it, and it seems to fit the bill. OP, yes, go thru the ignition system. I've had bad condensers pop up lately, and it didn't seem to matter if it was a Bosch condenser or a Standard brand, or someone's generic. It's really weird, in that things that never went bad before are going bad now.


A couple of things a competent mechanic would never use on any engine, ether or sea foam. Snake and snake oil. Ergo satan fluid. Smote begone😂🔥
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

I never said I was a competent mechanic. I'm a welder/fabricator who tries his best to keep his own junk running. Wink
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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VWFIXER
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
I never said I was a competent mechanic. I'm a welder/fabricator who tries his best to keep his own junk running. Wink


Its not a dig against anyone, except for the manufacturers. Ironically nothing is safe for us, but at least, we can not blow our head-studs loose. Cast iron blocks are stronger but its still no a great idea. Wink
I bought a diesel sprinter that had been ruined with starting fluid because the stinkfoot was too cheap to replace the cold start valve.
blew the #4 rod bearing. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

Do you remove this plate to change the oil? There's no drain plug anywhere. The videos I watched have a drain plug in the center of that plate. And there is no oil filter on these things?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

JCBond wrote:
Do you remove this plate to change the oil? There's no drain plug anywhere. The videos I watched have a drain plug in the center of that plate. And there is no oil filter on these things?


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Very delicate those little nuts, but yes. The screen is behind that cover. You’re going to laugh when you see it. Seeing the junk on the cover plate will give a window into the health of the bottom end.

I’m not really happy with the jack placement 😂
On the shock mount or under the tortion bar housing is better. Look like the jack is holding the car up with the cv axle.

The nuts are soft threads to keep from messing up the case. Take note how much pressure it takes to remove them, so not to strip the nuts. You shouldn’t put regular nuts if they get buggered up.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

Ok thanks VWFIXER. I moved the jack stand. I'll take that plate off when I get new gaskets.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

Can some one tell me what this 3 pin plug on the distributor does.

Thanks



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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

JCBond wrote:
Can some one tell me what this 3 pin plug on the distributor does.

Thanks



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Trigger points underneath the metal cover wiring.
Buy the brown Bentley 69-73 Type 3 manual.
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

JCBond wrote:
Do you remove this plate to change the oil? There's no drain plug anywhere. The videos I watched have a drain plug in the center of that plate. And there is no oil filter on these things?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There's no drain plug because VW eliminated it, forcing you to remove the plate and clean the screen. This happened in about 71.5-72.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

I'm having trouble with the distributor and the ignition system. The dizzy that was in it was not clamped down there was some sandpaper sitting on the deck. There was also a new dizzy in a box. So I'm assuming someone had trouble with it.

The new dissy in the box does not have the three pin thing connected to the housing for the fuel injection. It's a Bosch 0 231 178 009.

So I got the motor to TDC and installed the old dissy. It is my understanding it orientates like this. With the notch on the dizzy housing toward the back of the generator and the rotor pointing to number 1. My understanding is you do not line up the rotor with the notch like on a beetle because of the different configuration in a square back.


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When installed like this I get intermittent spark. No. 2 sparks intermittent. No 1 and 4 do not spark and no 3 sparks intermittent.

I did the same procedure with the new dizzy in the box and all four sparked. But I cannot use the new dizzy because it does not have that 3 pin connection for the FI. Should I buy a new dizzy and can you get one with that 3 pin?
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

You will get better help if you avoid the term "dizzy"! Wink

Since some cylinders fire and some don't, try replacing the distributor cap.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
You will get better help if you avoid the term "dizzy"! Wink

Since some cylinders fire and some don't, try replacing the distributor cap.


Thanks my brother keeps using that. He's rebuilding an old Porsche. I thought that's what the cool guys used. I thought I'd get better cred, but apparently I'll get worse. I won't use it anymore.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

JCBond wrote:
I'm having trouble with the distributor and the ignition system. The dizzy that was in it was not clamped down there was some sandpaper sitting on the deck. There was also a new dizzy in a box. So I'm assuming someone had trouble with it.

The new dissy in the box does not have the three pin thing connected to the housing for the fuel injection. It's a Bosch 0 231 178 009.

So I got the motor to TDC and installed the old dissy. It is my understanding it orientates like this. With the notch on the dizzy housing toward the back of the generator and the rotor pointing to number 1. My understanding is you do not line up the rotor with the notch like on a beetle because of the different configuration in a square back.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


When installed like this I get intermittent spark. No. 2 sparks intermittent. No 1 and 4 do not spark and no 3 sparks intermittent.

I did the same procedure with the new dizzy in the box and all four sparked. But I cannot use the new dizzy because it does not have that 3 pin connection for the FI. Should I buy a new dizzy and can you get one with that 3 pin?


The "new in the box 009" won't work with your FI. It's for a carbed engine (industrial application), and doesn't have a provision for the FI trigger plate. Since you're keeping the FI, use the stock distributor.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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JCBond
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

Got it running. Sounds ok. Just need to fine tune it now.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AMmFttMiaow

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1_X6UoXg11c
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

JCBond wrote:
Got it running. Sounds ok. Just need to fine tune it now.


Arriving late to this party as I'm usually hanging out in the Eurovan forum.

The Bosch D-Jet Fuel Injection System was used on several different cars in the early 70s: Squareback/Fastback, Porsche 914, Volvo 1800E, Volvo 140 & 160 series, Mercedes 450 SL/SLC/SEL and others. I have a 1970 Volvo 1800E and have used a Volvo Bosch Fuel Injection Fault Guide. They system is pretty much the same component wise, but I don't know where specific values for sensors or other systems diverge between the VW and Volvo applications. Here is a link to a .pdf of the guide and that should give you some things to look/think about when working on the system.
https://volvo1800pictures.com/document/fuel_injection_fault_tracer/fuel_injection_fault_tracing.pdf
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JCBond
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Joined: April 21, 2022
Posts: 27
Location: Utah
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: New guy trying to get a 1971 Squareback started Reply with quote

Saturn wrote:
JCBond wrote:
Got it running. Sounds ok. Just need to fine tune it now.


Arriving late to this party as I'm usually hanging out in the Eurovan forum.

The Bosch D-Jet Fuel Injection System was used on several different cars in the early 70s: Squareback/Fastback, Porsche 914, Volvo 1800E, Volvo 140 & 160 series, Mercedes 450 SL/SLC/SEL and others. I have a 1970 Volvo 1800E and have used a Volvo Bosch Fuel Injection Fault Guide. They system is pretty much the same component wise, but I don't know where specific values for sensors or other systems diverge between the VW and Volvo applications. Here is a link to a .pdf of the guide and that should give you some things to look/think about when working on the system.
https://volvo1800pictures.com/document/fuel_injection_fault_tracer/fuel_injection_fault_tracing.pdf


Dang that is a great book. Thanks!!
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