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ecallaway Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2020 Posts: 164 Location: Encinitas, California
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 8:16 pm Post subject: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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From what I can gather from the forums, valve springs get old and break. And then they can be replaced. But I am concerned that there might be other damage, so just replacing the broken spring could result in bigger problems. Should I just have a complete rebuild done?
This is a 1955 beetle with the original engine. After the spring broke I ran the engine on 2 cylinders for about 15-20 minutes total over a 2-3 week period while trying to diagnose and fix problems. When I finally got to removing the valve cover I found a bunch of oil in there and the valve retainer and keepers were loose inside. The #1 intake valve is jammed under the rocker. When I advance the engine manually, all the other rockers seem to move properly and the push rod for #1 intake moves as it should. Can I just get a new spring, retainer, and keepers and put it all back together without removing the engine? Well I could ... but should I?
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esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5969 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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Does the valve move all the way open and closed -without binding? If you hold it closed, and then spin it, does it turn smoothly? If it chatters as it goes around, or binds while opening it's probably hit the piston and bent. Then the head needs to come off. If it feels good, replace all the springs. I feed a few feet of clothesline into the cylinder through the spark plug hole, then turn it to top dead center. (Leave the end of the clothesline hanging out!) This forces the ball of line up against the valves and holds them closed while you replace the springs. Works much better than the compressed air method, which usually leaks on old worn engines. _________________ modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9966 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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Why not? You got nothing to lose. Right? If it breaks a spring again, you have to rebuild the motor. If the valve break in half, you have to rebuild the motor. Anyway you roll the dice on this, you are rebuilding the engine if it does not work out. So, go for it! I have replaced a few broken springs through the years with no I’ll effect on the engine. The last few have been in conjunction of having rusty springs! Go figure! That rust acts as a weak spot in the spring for some reason. Makes sense though. _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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ecallaway Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2020 Posts: 164 Location: Encinitas, California
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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esde wrote: |
Does the valve move all the way open and closed -without binding? If you hold it closed, and then spin it, does it turn smoothly? If it chatters as it goes around, or binds while opening it's probably hit the piston and bent. Then the head needs to come off. If it feels good, replace all the springs. I feed a few feet of clothesline into the cylinder through the spark plug hole, then turn it to top dead center. (Leave the end of the clothesline hanging out!) This forces the ball of line up against the valves and holds them closed while you replace the springs. Works much better than the compressed air method, which usually leaks on old worn engines. |
Thanks. I think I will have to remove the rocker arm to check on the status of the valve. Right now, as you can see in the picture, it is pinned in place. Yeah, I am thinking I will replace all the springs, retainers and keepers on that side while it is off. Maybe I should do the other side too? Thanks for the clothesline tip ... saw that on some older forums too, |
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ecallaway Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2020 Posts: 164 Location: Encinitas, California
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Why not? You got nothing to lose. Right? If it breaks a spring again, you have to rebuild the motor. If the valve break in half, you have to rebuild the motor. Anyway you roll the dice on this, you are rebuilding the engine if it does not work out. So, go for it! I have replaced a few broken springs through the years with no I’ll effect on the engine. The last few have been in conjunction of having rusty springs! Go figure! That rust acts as a weak spot in the spring for some reason. Makes sense though. |
Great. Thanks. That was my first thought, but was not sure just how much damage I might do. |
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ecallaway Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2020 Posts: 164 Location: Encinitas, California
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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esde wrote: |
... This forces the ball of line up against the valves and holds them closed while you replace the springs. ..... |
Do you mean that it holds the valves open? From what I am imagining, if the valves are fully open then the spring does not have to be as compressed to get the retainer on. And I imagine that the line fills the cylinder and pushes against the valves to force them open. Or am I completely missing something? |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9966 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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ecallaway wrote: |
esde wrote: |
... This forces the ball of line up against the valves and holds them closed while you replace the springs. ..... |
Do you mean that it holds the valves open? From what I am imagining, if the valves are fully open then the spring does not have to be as compressed to get the retainer on. And I imagine that the line fills the cylinder and pushes against the valves to force them open. Or am I completely missing something? |
It keeps the valves against their seats, so closed. That is the only way you could compress the spring. An open valve would have a compressed spring. _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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ecallaway Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2020 Posts: 164 Location: Encinitas, California
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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VW_Jimbo wrote: |
ecallaway wrote: |
esde wrote: |
... This forces the ball of line up against the valves and holds them closed while you replace the springs. ..... |
Do you mean that it holds the valves open? From what I am imagining, if the valves are fully open then the spring does not have to be as compressed to get the retainer on. And I imagine that the line fills the cylinder and pushes against the valves to force them open. Or am I completely missing something? |
It keeps the valves against their seats, so closed. That is the only way you could compress the spring. An open valve would have a compressed spring. |
OK Thanks. I am clearly not envisioning this correctly. Best to just get in there and do it. Then it will probably make sense. |
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ecallaway Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2020 Posts: 164 Location: Encinitas, California
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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VW_Jimbo wrote: |
ecallaway wrote: |
esde wrote: |
... This forces the ball of line up against the valves and holds them closed while you replace the springs. ..... |
Do you mean that it holds the valves open? From what I am imagining, if the valves are fully open then the spring does not have to be as compressed to get the retainer on. And I imagine that the line fills the cylinder and pushes against the valves to force them open. Or am I completely missing something? |
It keeps the valves against their seats, so closed. That is the only way you could compress the spring. An open valve would have a compressed spring. |
Ooohhh. Now I see. I Googled valves and the picture helps. I stupidly imagined that the valve was on the other side of the cylinder. Of course that would never work. |
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splitjunkie Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 4095
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 3:41 am Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Why not? You got nothing to lose. Right? If it breaks a spring again, you have to rebuild the motor. If the valve break in half, you have to rebuild the motor. Anyway you roll the dice on this, you are rebuilding the engine if it does not work out. So, go for it! I have replaced a few broken springs through the years with no I’ll effect on the engine. The last few have been in conjunction of having rusty springs! Go figure! That rust acts as a weak spot in the spring for some reason. Makes sense though. |
There is plenty that can go wrong. If the valve binds while running it can hit the piston, knock a hole in it and the pieces end up in the crankcase, which could cause damage. If the valve breaks in half, add the cost of a new head too.
I know because I had this happened many years ago to an engine I bought and was told that it ran fine. The valve didn't break in half, but it stuck and did just what I described.
It is cheap insurance to pull the head now and make sure that the valve isn't bent and didn't contact the piston.
These parts aren't getting any cheaper or any easier to find.
Pull the head now or take your chances. _________________ Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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VWFIXER Banned
Joined: January 21, 2011 Posts: 411 Location: Hawaii- Rarotonga
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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I replaced a spring on an intact engine along side of the road in Kapaa for a friend. Big Diesel dump truck. With OEMTOOLS 27040 Valve Spring Compressor, $25 _________________ ( ) Cheap
( ) Fast
( ) Reliable
Choose 2
Over a million air cooled miles driven and 15,000+ cars serviced. |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9966 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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splitjunkie wrote: |
VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Why not? You got nothing to lose. Right? If it breaks a spring again, you have to rebuild the motor. If the valve break in half, you have to rebuild the motor. Anyway you roll the dice on this, you are rebuilding the engine if it does not work out. So, go for it! I have replaced a few broken springs through the years with no I’ll effect on the engine. The last few have been in conjunction of having rusty springs! Go figure! That rust acts as a weak spot in the spring for some reason. Makes sense though. |
There is plenty that can go wrong. If the valve binds while running it can hit the piston, knock a hole in it and the pieces end up in the crankcase, which could cause damage. If the valve breaks in half, add the cost of a new head too.
I know because I had this happened many years ago to an engine I bought and was told that it ran fine. The valve didn't break in half, but it stuck and did just what I described.
It is cheap insurance to pull the head now and make sure that the valve isn't bent and didn't contact the piston.
These parts aren't getting any cheaper or any easier to find.
Pull the head now or take your chances. |
“Could” cause damage. But, if it is already broken, the damage is already done. That is why I stated, “you have nothing to lose.”
And obviously, if the valve cannot be moved in and out 3/8” after rocker removal, then a rebuild is your only option. But if you can move the valve with no binding, again I say, go for it! _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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ecallaway Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2020 Posts: 164 Location: Encinitas, California
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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Thanks all. It's good to hear different perspectives on this. Another factor to weigh in is that I was already thinking of a rebuild because compression was on the low side when I took possession of the car 2 years ago. |
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esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5969 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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Here's my take on it:
If it was a 1600, sure take a gamble. The heads are everywhere and available new.
But 36hp heads have not been reproduced, and only 1 in 3 (my experience) is even able to be rebuilt, so I personally wouldn't take a chance unless I was sure the valve was straight.
I don't know if the spring tool for a 1600 will work o. the 36, but if it will changing the springs on the entire engine is no big deal _________________ modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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ecallaway Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2020 Posts: 164 Location: Encinitas, California
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Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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Well .... off with the head.
Took off the rocker arm and the valve stem is bent at its thinnest point. It will not turn easily in the guide or slide in and out easily. You can see in the picture that the valve stem does not align properly with the rocker arm. The spring is broken in 2 places so probably when it broke there was enough slack for the retainer and keepers to come off and then the force of the rocker arm bent the valve stem. Hopefully there was not also a collision with the piston. The rocker arm seems fine.
So the engine will come out, the head will need to come off and we will see what it looks like from the inside. Most likely I will just take the engine out and bring it to a good rebuilder. |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1163 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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ecallaway wrote: |
Well .... off with the head.
Took off the rocker arm and the valve stem is bent at its thinnest point. It will not turn easily in the guide or slide in and out easily. You can see in the picture that the valve stem does not align properly with the rocker arm. The spring is broken in 2 places so probably when it broke there was enough slack for the retainer and keepers to come off and then the force of the rocker arm bent the valve stem. Hopefully there was not also a collision with the piston. The rocker arm seems fine.
So the engine will come out, the head will need to come off and we will see what it looks like from the inside. Most likely I will just take the engine out and bring it to a good rebuilder. |
A little late to the party, but I noticed right away that the valve stem sure looks bent compared to the exhaust valve in the pic. I also had this happen to me on I-95 in South Carolina. I was able to change the spring at the Welcome Center rest area and drove on. I think the bending came from running the engine after the break. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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ecallaway Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2020 Posts: 164 Location: Encinitas, California
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2022 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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Just now realizing that I should link my posts about valves and pistons/cylinders since they are related.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
After removing the heads it was not much of a stretch to also take off the cylinders and pistons. Turns out that nothing from the valve spring breaking did any damage to the pistons or cylinders. So if the pistons and cylinders had been new and in good condition it would have been fine to rework the heads and replace the springs and valves. But the pistons were worn so I am replacing all the pistons and cylinders. |
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sunroof Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2006 Posts: 1774 Location: Winnipeg
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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Measure the end play. If it is out of spec then the whole thing should come apart. However! 36ers are very tough and will last a long time if treated with care while driving. It looks like #1 spring broke. Let us know how #3 and 4 look as well. #3 can easily kill you motor. As for useable 36 heads... I have 4 and all of them are cracked so yeah, save them if you can. Good luck!
Don _________________ Better and better mistakes! |
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ecallaway Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2020 Posts: 164 Location: Encinitas, California
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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Yes, everything came apart and heads were machined. All new valves and springs. New pushrods and tubes. New pistons and sleeves. Getting all my tin blasted and powdered and new tar board before putting everything back together. |
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sunroof Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2006 Posts: 1774 Location: Winnipeg
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Broken valve spring. What else might be damaged? |
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Pictures please!
Remember it's not porn if there are no images.
Don _________________ Better and better mistakes! |
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