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RCJH77 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 181 Location: Johnson County, KS
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 10:05 am Post subject: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems [SOLVED] |
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I know. Another one. Asking for mercy here.
I've read all of the threads I can find on the subject, and I've reviewed the wiring diagrams. I've already read the BugShop FAQ (multiple times). Here's the scenario:
I bought this bug a couple months ago and at the time, the PO told me the horn and turn signals weren't working and he couldn't figure out why. After getting it home, I saw that the horn wasn't hooked up at all. After going through all of the threads on this subject, there are some (probably obvious to others) missing dots I can't seem to connect. To be clear, electrical work is not my strong suit.
The first issue is this: There's a black and yellow wire for the horn that comes out of the fuse box. It runs down toward the wheel well hump, through the trunk pan and connects to the steering column. On the wiring diagram for the 1960 bug, it shows this wire connecting straight to the horn. Since it has to connect to the steering column, how does this connection end up at the horn? There has to be another wire that connects the horn to the steering column, right? (And what color is that wire?)
The second issue: The PO marked the horn with + and - signs, and has what I can only assume was his attempt to ground it (a wire connected to the bolt that is holding the horn onto the bug). The wire isn't connected to anything, and based on what I'm seeing on the BugShop FAQ, the horn shouldn't have a ground (it also shouldn't have a + or - sign, as the connections are interchangeable). This leads to my next question: What should the second wire from the horn be connected to? (And what color is that wire?) There's a solid blue wire coming out of the wheel well that seems to be part of the equation, but looking at the wiring diagram, I see no blue wire for the horn. It's connected on one end to a relay (see pic). Very possible that the PO replaced one of the horn wires with this blue one (wrapped in electrical tape).
PO's attempt at a ground wire?
Possibly a replacement wire? Was the original wire red, or maybe brown?
Lastly, the ground strap on the steering column is there, but it's completely covered in...something. Undercoating, road debris, who knows. This should be fine, right? I have a new ground strap I can install, but it looks like a tricky job, and one that I'd like to avoid if I can.
Here are the wiring sheets I've been referencing.
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Last edited by RCJH77 on Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dan22 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2019 Posts: 456 Location: Battle Ground, WA
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 11:23 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems |
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Someone added a relay for the horn so the wiring diagram is clearly not for that style. Very simple wiring if you want to go back to stock. Fused power to the horn, steering column from the horn. Horn button is a ground contact.
If you want to keep the relay, then it must have a fused hot wire feed to it, then the horn button (steering column) to the relay coil. Then, the horn needs the output from the relay switch (controlled power out), and ground the other side of the horn. The relay probably must also be grounded. This is all assuming that I got the relay design configuration correct.
Hope this helps and does not add any confusion. _________________ 1-0900722 die langsame grüne Schildkröte
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=765074 |
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Seb67 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2003 Posts: 1003 Location: New England
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems |
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Perhaps this video will help?
Link
_________________ 1964 Type 1 |
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RCJH77 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 181 Location: Johnson County, KS
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems |
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The first part made a lot of sense! 😅
Any idea what the relay could've been used for? I'm gonna do some more investigating (i.e. follow the other two wires), but I think putting it back to the original setup is the life for me. |
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Seb67 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2003 Posts: 1003 Location: New England
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems |
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Often times a relay is used in an attempt to provide more current (or at least more consistent current) to the device being switched. (in this case the horn). In the vw, a relay for the starter is most often added when trying to fix a 'hard start problem.'. Perhaps the previous owner was experiencing horn troubles and added a relay in an attempt to 'fix' a weak or intermittent horn tone? Who knows. Going back to original is certainly the easiest.
Good luck! _________________ 1964 Type 1 |
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RCJH77 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 181 Location: Johnson County, KS
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems |
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So I pulled the relay out, got rid of the added wires, and reconnected the horn. Good news is, the horn works. Bad news is, if the battery is connected, the horn is blaring.
This is a grounding issue in the steering column, right? |
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Seb67 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2003 Posts: 1003 Location: New England
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems |
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RCJH77 wrote: |
So I pulled the relay out, got rid of the added wires, and reconnected the horn. Good news is, the horn works. Bad news is, if the battery is connected, the horn is blaring.
This is a grounding issue in the steering column, right? |
Sounds like it. There are rubber isolation points that can deteriorate over time. The column might be touching somewhere. Take the gas tank out if possible. It will make inspecting everything much easier. Good luck! _________________ 1964 Type 1 |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems |
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RCJH77 wrote: |
So I pulled the relay out, got rid of the added wires, and reconnected the horn. Good news is, the horn works. Bad news is, if the battery is connected, the horn is blaring.
This is a grounding issue in the steering column, right? |
Now you get to learn about the difference between the '60-'61 and the '62-'67 horn wiring systems.
The short of it is that the early system puts 6 volts on the horn. The other horn terminal goes to steering column tube (that tab on the tub under the gas tank) and the horn button then applies that 6 to the steering shaft. There is a jumper on the rag joint so that power can then find ground through the steering box. It is a unique steering wheel and some fancy pins and plastic insulating spacers and quite the PITA.
The later system puts power to the horn, then from the other horn terminal to the steering column tube. This part is the same as before. With the later system the upper steering column bearing puts that same power on the shaft. The steering wheel is connected to the shaft so it has power from the horn on it too. The horn button, when pressed connects the steering wheel to a brown wire that runs down the steering column, out the slot at the bottom, and over to a terminal on the steering box side of the rag joint. The steering box again provides the horn ground. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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RCJH77 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 181 Location: Johnson County, KS
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 6:05 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems |
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Really appreciate the help, everyone! It may be a while before I can dig into the steering column, but I will come back and update this thread with the outcome (or, more likely, more questions)! |
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McGuirk Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2004 Posts: 114
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 11:38 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems |
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This Wolfsburg West page describes the 60-61 setup but unfortunately it doesn't have a diagram or show where the spacers or shims go on the steering tube. The diagrams of the 62-67 may help visualizing where the connections should be.
https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/wired/wired_12_00/wired_12_00.htm |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems |
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Here are some good pictures of the '60-'61 steering wheel, horn button, and steering shaft assembly.
It helps that my first car was a '60 Bug converted to the later style horn system so I could use a Grant steering wheel (it was the '80's .) My Dad had a '60 with the original setup, together we got his horn working with some of the parts from my Bug. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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RCJH77 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 181 Location: Johnson County, KS
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems [SOLVED] |
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I was finally able to carve out some time to work on this again. I replaced all of the rubber from the firewall to the steering wheel, replaced the plastic washers for the three screws holding the horn ring on, and replaced the insulation sleeve on the steering post. I also disassembled the turn signal switch and cleaned up all of the connections and contact points. Hooked the battery back up and the horn works as it should.
The only problems I still have are the turn signals and brake lights not working. Thought all of this would've fixed those issues. |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems [SOLVED] |
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RCJH77 wrote: |
I was finally able to carve out some time to work on this again. I replaced all of the rubber from the firewall to the steering wheel, replaced the plastic washers for the three screws holding the horn ring on, and replaced the insulation sleeve on the steering post. I also disassembled the turn signal switch and cleaned up all of the connections and contact points. Hooked the battery back up and the horn works as it should.
The only problems I still have are the turn signals and brake lights not working. Thought all of this would've fixed those issues. |
Thanks for reporting what does work. So many threads have advice, but future readers won't know if it was any good without a success report from the original poster.
Is your 6 wire turn signal switch stock or aftermarket? I ask because the wire colors between them seem to be different, and honestly the aftermarket ones seem less reliable too. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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RCJH77 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 181 Location: Johnson County, KS
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems [SOLVED] |
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EVfun wrote: |
Is your 6 wire turn signal switch stock or aftermarket? I ask because the wire colors between them seem to be different, and honestly the aftermarket ones seem less reliable too. |
Honestly, I'm not sure. I think it's an aftermarket, but the wires definitely match the rest of the car. |
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RCJH77 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 181 Location: Johnson County, KS
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:06 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems [SOLVED] |
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RCJH77 wrote: |
EVfun wrote: |
Is your 6 wire turn signal switch stock or aftermarket? I ask because the wire colors between them seem to be different, and honestly the aftermarket ones seem less reliable too. |
Honestly, I'm not sure. I think it's an aftermarket, but the wires definitely match the rest of the car. |
Just noticed the SWF stamp on mine, so yeah...aftermarket. I'm sure this explains a lot. |
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RCJH77 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 181 Location: Johnson County, KS
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:20 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems [SOLVED] |
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The problem is back. I recently swapped the front beam and while the tank was out, decided to repaint the steering column, turn signal switch, and steering wheel as they were painted the wrong color by the previous owner. I put everything back together and now the horn isn't working again.
Here are the attempts I've made at correcting the issue, to no avail:
- Removed the ground strap at the end of the steering shaft (under the tank), cleaned the connections, and reinstalled, ensuring good connections to bare metal on both sides of the steering coupler.
- Removed the ground wire from the steering column/tube (under the tank), cleaned the connection, and reinstalled, ensuring a good connection to bare metal.
- Ensured that all contact points on the steering wheel and horn ring are clean and making contact with bare metal.
- Confirmed that the fuse for the horn is not broken/burned/etc. and that the connection isn't loose.
- Cleaned and reconnected both wires from the horn to the fuse and to the turn signal switch wiring.
- Checked connections at the horn itself.
The only other thing I can think of is that maybe the horn is somehow bad, but I don't know how changing the front beam and removing and repainting the steering components would've killed the horn. I would test the horn/wiring using a multimeter, but I can honestly say that multimeters make zero sense to me. I've watched numerous videos on how to use them and I can never seem to get the info to translate to my applications. If one of you can give me (very) detailed steps on how to use one in this very specific scenario, I would appreciate it.
Anything else I could be missing? If none of this works, I think it could be time to bypass the steering column and put the horn on a separate switch. If I wanted to do this, how would I wire it up and what kind of switch should I use? |
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Dan22 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2019 Posts: 456 Location: Battle Ground, WA
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:09 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems [SOLVED] |
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The beam is the ground for the horn via the steering box. Test from there perhaps. That is why you have a ground strap on the flex coupler. _________________ 1-0900722 die langsame grüne Schildkröte
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=765074 |
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RCJH77 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 181 Location: Johnson County, KS
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:18 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems [SOLVED] |
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Dan22 wrote: |
The beam is the ground for the horn via the steering box. Test from there perhaps. That is why you have a ground strap on the flex coupler. |
Good idea. I'll see if I can create a ground connection on the steering box side and test again. Thanks for the suggestion! |
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RCJH77 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 181 Location: Johnson County, KS
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 6:31 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle 6v - Horn Wiring Problems [SOLVED] |
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Dan22 wrote: |
The beam is the ground for the horn via the steering box. Test from there perhaps. That is why you have a ground strap on the flex coupler. |
That did it! Added a ground strap from the steering box to a bumper bolt. Not ideal, but it'll be hidden by the spare tire. The horn is working again, so I'm happy. Thanks!
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