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Themanfour Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2022 Posts: 4
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:54 pm Post subject: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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So I was driving my 69 Ghia and the fan belt flew off at higher rpm’s. New fan belt is on, and can’t get it to start. Couple points of interest:
1. Engine shut down on its own the second it lost the belt
2. Car cranks smoothly but no life or sputters
3. All wires and hoses checked, working properly
4. Crank pulley has wobble, not sure if that is what CAUSED the fan belt to come off, or if it happened during (cracked crank) or if it has been like that for a while. Operates fine and spins belt, slight wobble. Still keyed and working properly elsewise
5. No fuel return line (been told I might need this or it will flood and not crank)
Might not matter
6. Compression has been felt in cylinders 1 and 4, have not checked the others
7. No strange sounds besides a very slight knock sometimes when cranking by hand
8. Messed with all sorts of timing, have tried it every which way, every combination
If anyone has any advice on this, that would be awesome
My limited knowledge is coming up with a few ideas, each reaching to some of the points but not all.
In my mind I’ve come to assume out of the possible options but none of them answer every problem
Crank bent
Crank broken
Flooded
Some wire somewhere is out
As said I am getting compression, spark, and fuel |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51153 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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Welcome!
Since it quit when the belt came off I'd be looking for a wire or hose that got knocked off by the departing belt.
The wobbly pulley and potential knock is interesting though, any noises or play when you rock the motor back and forth using the pulley bolt or alternator nut?, does the distributor turn when you crank the engine? _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
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Themanfour Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2022 Posts: 4
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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busdaddy wrote: |
Welcome!
Since it quit when the belt came off I'd be looking for a wire or hose that got knocked off by the departing belt.
The wobbly pulley and potential knock is interesting though, any noises or play when you rock the motor back and forth using the pulley bolt or alternator nut?, does the distributor turn when you crank the engine? |
We have checked all wiring and seems to be original and working. Haven’t gone and voltage tested anything but I can only imagine the belt knocking a wire loose, not stopping its ability to transmit power.
No play in crank bolt or generator for that matter, no strange noises. Does seem to be harder to spin at a certain part but could be placebo it’s that minor.
Distributor spins just fine, points contact, and spark is sent down spark plug wires. Have tested that
Going to look more into wiring |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31379 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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Themanfour wrote: |
So I was driving my 69 Ghia and the fan belt flew off at higher rpm’s. |
Way back in the late 1970s, Cusser's mom was driving my 1971 Convertible when the fan belt broke (in Arizona summer) and she intentionally disregarded my warning when I'd given it to her on extended lend, and kept driving at least three miles. Fortunately, there was no damage.
A couple of years later she was driving it and the factory generator pulley exploded, but this time she stopped immediately and called me. No other damage.
I would suspect a wiring issue caused by the fan belt flopping; after you figure that out, I'd address the wobbly pulley. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Themanfour Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2022 Posts: 4
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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Cusser wrote: |
Themanfour wrote: |
So I was driving my 69 Ghia and the fan belt flew off at higher rpm’s. |
Way back in the late 1970s, Cusser's mom was driving my 1971 Convertible when the fan belt broke (in Arizona summer) and she intentionally disregarded my warning when I'd given it to her on extended lend, and kept driving at least three miles. Fortunately, there was no damage.
A couple of years later she was driving it and the factory generator pulley exploded, but this time she stopped immediately and called me. No other damage.
I would suspect a wiring issue caused by the fan belt flopping; after you figure that out, I'd address the wobbly pulley. |
All wiring has been checked 3 times over |
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rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1172 Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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No compression......piston rings smoked. I had a guy look at me in disbelief when I told him what he had done. _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31379 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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Themanfour wrote: |
All wiring has been checked 3 times over |
Spray some aerosol starting fluid into the air cleaner or carb, try to start, do this a few times. If it runs for a few seconds then quits out, you have a fuel delivery issue, start there. If it won't run at all when you do this, then it's a spark issue, work on that. This is a common first test to help isolate the problem. This is practically an ALWAYS: isolate whether spark or fuel. And remember: just because the engine can crank fine, doesn't mean that the electrical part of the ignition switch (the "run" circuit) is OK. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Themanfour Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2022 Posts: 4
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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rugblaster wrote: |
No compression......piston rings smoked. I had a guy look at me in disbelief when I told him what he had done. |
As much I want to believe that for at least an easy answer, we seem to have decent compression in all cylinders. Haven’t done a proper compression test yet, but the ol finger in the hole method has shown a good amount in each.
What would be the cause of the fan belt flying off creating worn/ruined piston rings? It stopped immediately, never overheated. Is it the amount of fuel? |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51153 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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Themanfour wrote: |
What would be the cause of the fan belt flying off creating worn/ruined piston rings? It stopped immediately, never overheated. Is it the amount of fuel? |
How are you sure it quit as the belt left?, what was the deciding factor?
1-2 minutes at highway speed with no belt results in permanently dead engine.
A real compression test would be good to know, if you think it's lack of fuel dump a tablespoon full of gas down the carb throat and see if it tries to run a little. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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FarmerBill Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2017 Posts: 767 Location: New England
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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It is possible you didn't catch the belt flopping off and the engine stopped itself by friction, aka a "soft seize". I did it once to a Chevy pickup when the thermostat failed, the engine turned freely after it cooled down and would even run and drive, but it was obvious that it had been badly damaged. After you determine you have spark and fuel do a compression check, you may have warped your cylinders. |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20380 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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Cusser wrote: |
Themanfour wrote: |
All wiring has been checked 3 times over |
Spray some aerosol starting fluid into the air cleaner or carb, try to start, do this a few times. If it runs for a few seconds then quits out, you have a fuel delivery issue, start there. If it won't run at all when you do this, then it's a spark issue, work on that. This is a common first test to help isolate the problem. This is practically an ALWAYS: isolate whether spark or fuel. And remember: just because the engine can crank fine, doesn't mean that the electrical part of the ignition switch (the "run" circuit) is OK. |
YES!!! ... Start with this.... _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1218 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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to check if the ignition system is working , pull a spark plug lead , put a small screw driver into the lead and hold it off the manifold or case about 3mm to 6mm . Get someone to crank the engine over . It should have spark jumping from the screw driver to the earth point . If no spark , put the lead back on , then pull the coil lead from the distributor cap , try the same thing with the screw driver . If you now have spark , then the rotor is bad .
If you still have no spark then you will need to start checking if you have power to the coil etc . check points gap . Read up on how a points ignition works . |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6032 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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Not the first time for this story from me.
I was 1985 and I was driving from Upstate New York to my Job in Manhattan. After 17 snow storms the highway did not have any place to pull over due to the snow plows making a snow wall.
My Gen light went on, figured I could make it about a mile to the the next exit.
Nope as I was exiting I heard a bang and the bug died. Oil was dripping on the road. MY belt broke.
Took minutes for that to happen at 9 Degrees and doing 60 mph.
Wish you luck.
Oh the good news is I had a reason to install my 914 engine, which lead to me writing my manual. _________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1432
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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busdaddy wrote: |
1-2 minutes at highway speed with no belt results in permanently dead engine. |
I had a '68 single relief single port that ran all summer with the oil cooler seals swelled shut. I was rebuilding a dual relief dual port "in my spare time". Turns out I had no spare time that summer. So I ran it...
Can't be any different than the numerous engines I've seen with the heater hoses missing. Or the dreaded "No Tin Specials".
Which can't be a big difference from a couple minutes of running without the fan belt.
I'm looking at a "no tin" Formula V.
How do they do that?!
.
. |
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bsairhead Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008 Posts: 3580 Location: viroqua wi.
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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Not pushing oil through your cooler is not apples to apples to not cooling heads. |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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An engine will turn over fine, idle and run, with a cracked crankshaft. Rock the pulley, listen for a "clunk".
Re-adjust the valves after an "overheat", things have probably shifted around a bit.
Are all wires, distributor, set right, proper cylinders and firing order? A "thumb" compression test doesn't mean much...if you have the tools and time, why not check 2 and 3, too?
Are you sure you're getting a spark? Does it smell like gas if you sniff the tail-pipe(s)? |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51153 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Engine troubles after fan belt lost |
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Dusty1 wrote: |
busdaddy wrote: |
1-2 minutes at highway speed with no belt results in permanently dead engine. |
I had a '68 single relief single port that ran all summer with the oil cooler seals swelled shut. I was rebuilding a dual relief dual port "in my spare time". Turns out I had no spare time that summer. So I ran it...
Can't be any different than the numerous engines I've seen with the heater hoses missing. Or the dreaded "No Tin Specials".
Which can't be a big difference from a couple minutes of running without the fan belt.
I'm looking at a "no tin" Formula V.
How do they do that?!
.
. |
Apparently you were buying pretty good oil that could handle the higher temps.
Comparing an open engine in a fast moving formula V to one all cooped up in shrouds and tin buried in an engine compartment pushing around a vehicle at least twice as heavy is like comparing apples to oranges.
Feel free to remove your fan belt and drive around a while, let us know how that works out for you. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6032 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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