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2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat.
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EuroTec
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

TheOneTrueQuux wrote:
EuroTec wrote:

Either way, if it motors on down the road with no incident I'll then know the problem lies in the ECU overheating and I'll get to work on those heat sink mods.


You could also have a bond wire failure within the package, or the die might not be attached well enough to the package anymore, leading to high thermal resistance. Neither of these will be really fixed by adding a heat sink once they're failed.


Agree. I really think, as common as this problem is, that's it's a failure in the ECU. I have found sources for those driver chips. Not sure if they really exist though given the current "chip shortage". Rolling Eyes
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TheOneTrueQuux
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

EuroTec wrote:

Agree. I really think, as common as this problem is, that's it's a failure in the ECU. I have found sources for those driver chips. Not sure if they really exist though given the current "chip shortage". Rolling Eyes


The chip shortage is very real. Living that dream right now. However, those parts are VERY VERY old tech, and whatever sources you're finding may have chips that have been sitting on a shelf for 10 years, thus not really affected by the chip shortage.
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EuroTec
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

I put a new starter in the van today. The other one failed on me when I was coming back from dropping off a U-Haul trailer we had rented the day I had the stalling issue after over 3 hours of highway driving. It stalled twice on the way there, and three times on my way home. Third time was at a traffic light while idling. Tried to restart, no go, waited with 4 way flashers on for three light sequences, then the starter just went "click... click." Evil or Very Mad I managed to let it roll back wards down the slight grade I was on and bump start it in reverse. Yet another advantage of a manual swap!! Razz

So anyway, new starter installed today. I tested it, works fine. I then pulled the cover to the fuel pump and disconnected the electrical connector. I started the engine and let the fuel dissipate into the engine as it ran a short time then stalled. Tried a restart to make sure it wouldn't start. Connected scanner and pulled up live data,/fuel injector timing. Cranked the engine and after about 4-5 seconds it showed 1.5 ms. Repeated this several times and got a pulse of varying readings. When it was in fail mode the other day and I checked this data point it showed ZERO!

Given this new data I'm now 90% sure the problem is a component overheating in the ECU. It's installed now with the top cover removed and it's inside a pink anti-static bag to protect it. Next test is to let it run for a while then monitor temperatures of the chips with an infrared thermometer and see which one gets hottest. Then I'll apply some heat to that chip to see if it fails.If it does, then do the cool off thing with CO2 and see if it comes back. If it comes back I will have found the problem. Then I buy some NOS chips and replace them.
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EuroTec
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

I'm taking another long trip today to Asheville. About 300 mi. I have a new fuel pressure gauge installed to see if the fuel pump may be the problem when it decides to quit. I also have the ECU exposed in such a way that I can check the chips on the circuit board if it fails with my infrared thermometer. I have a can of CO2 with me that I can cool stuff down with to test if it is a failed chip. Also have the spare ECU to plug in so I can motor down the road if something catastrophically fails.

I have a laptop with vcds installed and the cable plus my Autel scan tool. I'm ready to troubleshoot this baby! I kind of hope it goes into fail mode so I can test it.


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EuroTec
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

So here I am in a parking lot in Conover North Carolina 151.9 miles into my trip. A few minutes ago on I-40 the car stalled. I pulled over and waited a minute until it restarted. I did notice the fuel pressure dropped off when it stalled and the warning light on my fuel pressure gauge came on.

As I mentioned, I came prepared to troubleshoot this. I pulled the cover off where the fuel pump is and connected a volt meter + to the lead that runs the fuel pump and - to ground. After a few minutes rest the car started up, fuel pump was running at normal pressure and I had 13.2 volts at the pump. I started to drive off and got about one half mile down the road and it quit again but I glanced over at the voltmeter as the fuel pressure dropped off and I still had 13.2 volts.

I waited a few more minutes till it cooled down enough, or whatever it is it does, and managed to find an exit within a quarter mile and pulled off into a parking lot. I turned on the AC and drove in circles around the shopping center until it failed again, at idle this time watching the voltmeter. The voltage never fell off as the pressure dropped off.

So, here in the parking lot, I am going to install my brand new VDO fuel pump. I have about 2/3 of a tank of gas so I won't have to deal with too much mess in that regard. Time to get started swapping out a fuel pump on the road.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

Thanks for letting us follow along with your troubleshooting! I see you have Jeremy Clarkson's favourite tool close to hand whilst working.
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EuroTec
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

Fuel pump swapped out and I'm on my way again. I just put two and two together and I've got another theory here. Every time this has happened, it's been after a long drive with the fuel tank below 2/3 which means more of the fuel pump is actually exposed air. In-tank fuel pumps depend on being in the fuel to keep them cooler and lubricated. As they start to wear out they need more current to run. If they get hot, they need even more current and eventually they just stop working. So I'm theorizing here but I'm hoping I've actually found the problem. Time will tell.

Also I'm pretty sure I can rule out the ECU at this point. I still have the spare in the glove box though just in case.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

bikes! wrote:
Thanks for letting us follow along with your troubleshooting! I see you have Jeremy Clarkson's favourite tool close to hand whilst working.


A hammer and a big flat blade screwdriver to remove the fuel pump retaining. 🔨🪛🤓
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

Strong work. So did the new fuel pump solve your issue? Fuel cooling of the pump seems to affect only some cars with undersized pumps, or those that are on their way out. At 2/3 of a tank I wouldn't think that should be a problem. Hopefully yours was dying and you have fixed it.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:46 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

MrPulldown wrote:
Strong work. So did the new fuel pump solve your issue? Fuel cooling of the pump seems to affect only some cars with undersized pumps, or those that are on their way out. At 2/3 of a tank I wouldn't think that should be a problem. Hopefully yours was dying and you have fixed it.


Most every car today. It’s why you should keep 1/4 tank or more at all times
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EuroTec
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

MrPulldown wrote:
Strong work. So did the new fuel pump solve your issue? Fuel cooling of the pump seems to affect only some cars with undersized pumps, or those that are on their way out. At 2/3 of a tank I wouldn't think that should be a problem. Hopefully yours was dying and you have fixed it.


The top part of the pump was exposed to ambient air when I removed it. Not sure what manufacture it was. PO had it replaced once according to the service records but they may have gone with a cheap after market pump. The VDO pump I put in costs $200.

FWIW, I did an ohms check on the old fuel pump. It measured 2 ohms. The new VDO fuel pump measured .9 ohms.

So far it's doing just fine. I'm heading back today so we'll see how it holds up when I get close to 1/4 tank of fuel after a long drive.

UPDATE: Drove 250 miles home without incident!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

Oh how we've improved life. Hard to believe a simple carb bypasses all this complated electronic crap.. to..how much of the environment are we really saving??between manufacture,rare earth parts, etc,etc. Sorry guys I just couldn't help myself. My 6 cyl rambler w aut tranny got 24 mpg w carb & points , Back in the 60's ...Y gotta love progress. Good luck... Bill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

volkybus wrote:
Oh how we've improved life. Hard to believe a simple carb bypasses all this complated electronic crap.. to..how much of the environment are we really saving??between manufacture,rare earth parts, etc,etc. Sorry guys I just couldn't help myself. My 6 cyl rambler w aut tranny got 24 mpg w carb & points , Back in the 60's ...Y gotta love progress. Good luck... Bill


It's just another automotive problem to solve, just takes perseverance and logically applied diagnostic skills. Plus I pollute a lot less than I did with my 63 Dodge Dart slant 6 single carb car I drove in the 70s. Wink
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EuroTec
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:20 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

So far so good! I've made three 250 mile runs with the van now and I've had no stalling issues. I think replacing the fuel pump solved the issue. Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

Congrats on good y troubleshooting acumen. I’ve found blaming the ECU is wrong 99.99% of the time, and usually follows a large parts cannon narrate of failed new parts m bought of eBay.

Not only to do you have to shop by source, you have to buy from a known supplier to get a genuine part.

Those nice oetiker clamps will go on nicely with the Knipen crimp tool
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

My 2001 24v AXK weekender has been doing this for the last few years. Here’s my story.
8/2016. Van wouldn’t restart at gas station. Codes PO171,444,101, and 321. Fuel pump was dead. Replaced with one from Europarts-sd, I think it’s a Pierburg pump. New fuel filter. Codes gone, back on the road.
8/2018, died during 82 degree two hr trip. Would restart and go a mile or two then die. Towed home, replaced fuel filter and ran fine.
6/2019, 93 degree, 3 hr trip home from camping it died near home. Died two more times in last 3 miles home. Replaced filter ran fine.
6/2021 same camping trip with not problems but the weather was cool and rainy.
5/2022, 85 degree, 2 hr from home died. Would restart but died after a mile or so. While checking N80 valve hose I broke the plastic T coolant hose that’s behind it that goes from heater hose to throttle body. Could lack of coolant flow to throttle body be the problem? The feeder hose looked plugged up?.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

pwalker64 wrote:
My 2001 24v AXK weekender has been doing this for the last few years. Here’s my story.
8/2016. Van wouldn’t restart at gas station. Codes PO171,444,101, and 321. Fuel pump was dead. Replaced with one from Europarts-sd, I think it’s a Pierburg pump. New fuel filter. Codes gone, back on the road.
8/2018, died during 82 degree two hr trip. Would restart and go a mile or two then die. Towed home, replaced fuel filter and ran fine.
6/2019, 93 degree, 3 hr trip home from camping it died near home. Died two more times in last 3 miles home. Replaced filter ran fine.
6/2021 same camping trip with not problems but the weather was cool and rainy.
5/2022, 85 degree, 2 hr from home died. Would restart but died after a mile or so. While checking N80 valve hose I broke the plastic T coolant hose that’s behind it that goes from heater hose to throttle body. Could lack of coolant flow to throttle body be the problem? The feeder hose looked plugged up?.


Coolant flow to the throttle body is there to prevent icing in cool humid conditions. It is unlikely that lacking coolant flow would cause an issue at 85 degrees unless the air was totally saturated with water vapor.

This seems like a coincidental finding to me.
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EuroTec
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

pwalker64 wrote:
My 2001 24v AXK weekender has been doing this for the last few years. Here’s my story.
8/2016. Van wouldn’t restart at gas station. Codes PO171,444,101, and 321. Fuel pump was dead. Replaced with one from Europarts-sd, I think it’s a Pierburg pump. New fuel filter. Codes gone, back on the road.
8/2018, died during 82 degree two hr trip. Would restart and go a mile or two then die. Towed home, replaced fuel filter and ran fine.
6/2019, 93 degree, 3 hr trip home from camping it died near home. Died two more times in last 3 miles home. Replaced filter ran fine.
6/2021 same camping trip with not problems but the weather was cool and rainy.
5/2022, 85 degree, 2 hr from home died. Would restart but died after a mile or so. While checking N80 valve hose I broke the plastic T coolant hose that’s behind it that goes from heater hose to throttle body. Could lack of coolant flow to throttle body be the problem? The feeder hose looked plugged up?.


I replaced mine with a VDO pump. Not sure why your having problems with the Pierburg.
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

That's just it. I don't think my problem is the fuel pump. When the first pump died it threw codes. when the van dies on long hot trips it doesn't throw any codes. my van just doesn't like hot temperature and trips over 2hrs. Im getting ready to do the cam / timing chains replacement (240,000 miles)since my cams are reading -9 and -11 with VCDS. I'd really like to have an idea on what to look at while doing the chains that could fix this problem of the engine shutting down. so far the only thing I've found is replacing the fuel filter every other year. The last two filters didn't have any crap flush out of them after i removed them so I don't think they are the reason the van dies. Something is shutting down the engine but not throwing codes to let me know where to start. I'm looking for ideas.
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EuroTec
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: 2003 Eurovan stalling on highway in heat. Reply with quote

Well you could do what I did. Install that fuel pressure gauge and it will tell you if and when the fuel pressure drops by sounding a BEEP BEEP BEEP. It will confirm if it's an issue with the fuel pump, or not, when the problem happens. Totally worth the $40 and easy to install. They also make a coolant and oil pressure gauge which I plan on installing at some point soon.

https://www.amazon.com/Pressure-0-140PSI-Electroni...&psc=1
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