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Everything about CB Performance Black Box
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clonebug
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

I've been running Megasquirt with a Map Sensor since 2013. The ECU is mounted up front under the hood and the vacuum line runs from the engine along the passenger side outside the body to the firewall. I've never had an issue with signal due to length. Three different ECU's and no problems.

jimmyhoffa wrote:
I can just short of guarantee that a few feet of vacuum line will be absolutely no problem at all. I have set up some real weird EFI arrangements in test cells with oddly long vacuum lines, and even tested response times in long vac lines, and it was never enough to matter. I was curious about the same thing and so was the managing professor. I was using that hard plastic 1/8" or 3mm OD stuff, like Mercedes uses, so it has a pretty tiny ID. My BB install has several feet of vac line for the exact same reason you are considering having several feet of vac line. Been working great at a ridiculous variety of altitudes for about 6-8k miles now in all weather. (0-13,600 ft and 20F to 115F)

I actually found that having several feet of vacuum line helped damp some of the acoustic noise and stabilize the vacuum signal a bit, while negligibly or not at all delaying the signal. Remember to mount the MAP higher than the engine/vacuum takeoff points in general to avoid settling of gas vapors or condensation in the senor. If you can't, Google "SVDA Shepherd's hook" or "VW vacuum shepherds hook" to see how to route the vacuum line to keep the sensor as uncontaminated as possible.

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Lingwendil
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Good to hear!

Sounds like sensor behind the back seat it is then Cool
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

jimmyhoffa wrote:
To me the Holy Grail would be a little thing like the Black Box that can run software on PC/Android/iPhone and has a GUI / 3D ignition table like Daytona Digital's controller does with the PC Link software and Megajolt does with Tuner Studio

Really, the only thing the Black Box needs to become that thing is software!

I would pay 100 more dollars per unit to have 3 or so analog inputs with basic display capability, so you could have your old phone mounted on your dash and see the live ignition table, vacuum, throttle position, RPM, and AFR simultaneously. That would be the VW tuner bomb.


Doesn't the 123ignition distributor with bluetooth basically offer this? I don't see much love for it on here.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Yes, and no. The 123+ is only 2D programmable. But its definitely better than a 009, or 010, or 019 Wink
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
Yes, and no. The 123+ is only 2D programmable. But its definitely better than a 009, or 010, or 019 Wink


Does it require ported or manifold vacuum? I am considering something for my Spanish IDFs and already have a magnaspark II so maybe the black box is a better fit? 123 looks simpler though...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

boxer74 wrote:

Does it require ported or manifold vacuum?


A little off topic here, but I use my 123+ connected to manifold vacuum.
The software allows for a set RPM for vacuum advance to commence.
Mine is set for 1200 RPM.
Anyway, this setting serves the same purpose as using ported vacuum, except it does allow some vacuum advance with a closed throttle deceleration/coasting situation (a good thing).
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Hi...…I'm hoping somebody knows.....is the Black Box timing controller compatible with the Pertronix Digital HP Ignition box? I know its not compatible with the Pertronix Ignitor 3. Wasn't sure about the ignition box though. I posted this in another area of the forums, I was directed here, and this seems to be the place for Black Box questions....Any help would be greatly appreciated with this. …..Thank you
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Quote:
.is the Black Box timing controller compatible with the Pertronix Digital HP Ignition box?


I'm using the Winterburn CDI with my black box, it should be the same type of wiring setup.
http://www.capacitordischargeignition.com/
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Rob Combs
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
richardcraineum wrote:
I don't understand why some ppl have so much trouble with the black box. I mean it's a simple thing..

You will be surprised as to how much people can go wrong, - and not understand- or mis understand the simplest instructions and/or screw up the ignition curve to the point of danger.
This is part of the reason to why I stopped selling them and only use them once in a while on builds that are going to be tuned by myself.
Also, nowadays many people only have an Ipad or Telepad, which creates the next problem. They can´t hook up to it. So there is the next problem.


Hi all,

Been offline a bit but took Alstrup's reply as a hint that I might be running a curve "to the point of danger". If that was his intent, he's likely right-as usual.

I would not recommend anyone copy my curve - when I ran it full load and listened very carefully using a concrete divider wall as a sound reflector I got a very strange noise from the engine from ~ 3400 RPM and up. Backed off the timing and ran the same course, noise gone. Didn't sound like any detonation I've ever heard but not taking chances. Replaced my map with the CB standard dual carb map and while a little less punchy, still runs great and probably much safer.

So it's possible Alstrup's advice saved me from hammering my engine to death.

And the rotor mod showing with the extended counterclockwise-facing tab solved my starter kickback issues for whatever that's worth.

Also experimented with some VP 101 octane pump fuel and increasing the timing again - no signs of detonation or strange noises but also ran like crap from idle to about 2500 RPM, misfired on tip-in, would sometimes lose its idle and I'd have to keep revving it to keep it from stalling. Took 5 ½ hours to drive that fuel out of the tank. Pulled back to 87 pump fuel and backed the timing back down to the standard CB map. Now just a little hotter CHTs over the same load course I've been using to generate data. Will go back to 89 or 91 pump octane, keep the map where it is, and enjoy. Will look for additional performance elsewhere.

Thanks to all contributors on this thread! It's been quite an experience!

Rob.
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Rob Combs
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Adding to above the VP 101 had no discernible overall performance increase either - only problems that started when I replaced the fuel and upped the timing. No big shocker, this does not act like it has any real compression and the cylinder cranking pressure was somewhere around 115 PSI when I checked.

Also capped off my vacuum pickups on the manifolds and run the black box with the MAP sensor vented straight to atmosphere. Still runs great.

I'm probably not getting the fuel economy that would be possible running vacuum advance and maybe leaner idle jetting, but i need to build a more robust vacuum harness before I go back down that road. And probably pull the heads, inspect/correct deck height and measure/correct CR, making sure my baseline assembly is good before I go screwing around with the timing curve again.

The experiments are half the fun but it's time to take a deeper look inside before I go any further.

Hope someone out there finds this useful.

Rob
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:40 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Hello and ok, the way this CB Black Box Search is, sometimes you just have to hack out your question in this one thread, vs. a topic of conversation.

This is the inherent characteristics of the operations of both a centrifugal force/spring deal distributor vs. a Vacuum advance distributor. And yes, I know that the CB Black Box is locked out, but it is still "activated" and "ran" by the vacuum line from the intakes.

So, both distributors, vacuum advance and centrifugal excelerate the same way.

But it is in flat and down hill that concerns me, which out-come is the ride difference and noticeable drop off in engine RPM's and "feel" of engine input on these surfaces.

See, I grew up with the 009's and now into 010's. Never ran a vacuum asst.

So the question is this. Since the Vacuum Assist to the Black Box is off the Manifold which is directly effected by the Carb's Butterflys, do you still get the same "ride" as a typical mechanical's advancement type fall off or ride as described above?

See, I did not know if not just the use of the Black Box, but Vacuum, you irradicate this ride symptom of a slight feel that can be best described as slight "engine breaking" regarding mechanical distributors?

Thanks for the help, like to see a better and more collected thread on this topic, my main reason to upgrade an ignition for a street car, radio quality.. RB
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

With an SVDA, BB and the likes, and even the 123, on cruise the timing will advance as per settings. If you go down hill on cruise the setting will be about the same, but your throttle position will be slightly less. So even at higher rpm the advanced timing is no problem, but actually a good thing since the afr is high, or should be.
As I have mentioned before, when the timing picks up the engine from "above" instead of from a "stationary point the pick up will 9 out of 10 times be better.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Hows does everyone have this timing controller hooked up? Is everyone running just the blackbox direct to the coil? Does everyone use a separate Ignition box? does anyone run this with an MSD box? Ive followed the instructions to the letter in the wiring and the setup, it breaks up between 3500 and 4000 even sitting still, coil tested ok plugs are fine and wires are ok also. I know its alot of questions in one shot.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

As you can see by 26 pages in this thread everyone does a lot of things…
I’ve never run MSD with the BB, I’ve never seen the reason for the additional cost of an MSD and i also prefer k.i.s.s.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

MrSpeedy wrote:
Hows does everyone have this timing controller hooked up? Is everyone running just the blackbox direct to the coil? Does everyone use a separate Ignition box? does anyone run this with an MSD box? Ive followed the instructions to the letter in the wiring and the setup, it breaks up between 3500 and 4000 even sitting still, coil tested ok plugs are fine and wires are ok also. I know its alot of questions in one shot.

You 99% certain have RFI interfeerence.
1. The BB and the CDI should be at least 18" apart.
2. It is a good idea to replace the signal wires with shielded wires.
3. Don´t run power wires in the same bundle as the signal wires.
Do it like that and I´m pretty sure your problems disappear.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Hi, so I temporarily moved the box about 2 feet from the cdi box, it still does the same thing. I ended up removing the BB and putting in the original Daytona sensors TCS-1 timing box and everything works as it should with RPMs going right to 7100 cleanly, no popping spitting or backfires. I was hoping the BB would work cause it has a better range of timing control than the TCS-1 timing controller. Ive called CB 2-3 times already in the past week but nobody seems to have a clue as to how the BB even works. They kept saying the guy that knows is on vaca. Really disappointing that a company that sells a timing controller has no clue as to how it actually works or the program works and cant even really help. I'm going to try calling them again today in hopes that the "guy on vaca" is back and can help. Thanks for your advice, a shame it didn't work.
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

You need to speak with Mark Lawless at CB.

Last edited by 74 Thing on Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Hi.....so I did speak with Mark at CB a few hours ago, maybe bout an hour or so after my last post. Thank god hes there. He was the guy I needed to speak to. I explained my problem, and he said that since my dizzy has a magnetic pick-up that the clearance between the stator and the pickup may be too close. He told me to check and make sure its around .025 and .030. I asked him why he said the box is sensitive to the definition of the signal and when the clearance is too close there is not enough definition in the signal once the rpms get into the higher range for the box to tell them apart. I will try to increase the gap if I need to and Ill post what my results are. Thanks
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

So... new to the BB and ignition maping in general... not afraid to admit that I haven't a clue as to what I am doing, but at the same time I ooeratin in the "alone and unafraid" mindset.

I'm trying to figure out what people have done for maps with the magnaspark 2 set up.

I run a 1600 that I switched to 88mm jugs and pistons (no, not the thin wall slip ins) eith GTV2 heads and 1.25:1 rockers with a Sniper A1100 EFI. I'm just trying to sort out the best values for that with the BB map to produce the best balance of power, efficiency and temps. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box Reply with quote

Hi Scatbug,

Type of distributor is not quite as important; it will be locked out anyway. The BB comes pre-loaded with maps for different scenarios - and the single carb works great with a 34 PICT 3 as long as the vacuum line is connected to the manifold (not the distributor vacuum pickup on the carb!). At least it did for my engine, WAY better driveability than the aftermarket 034 SVDA distributor I was using.

If you switch to dual carbs, the standard dual carb map will get you pretty close with or without vacuum pickup, but it'll probably run better with a vacuum signal and a bit of off-idle advance. If you're going to use IDFs (or IDF mounting configuration carbs), CB has spacers with intake vacuum ports. You can tee together the vacuum lines into the MAP port on the BB with a little fabrication. If you're using something other than IDFs, you'll have to make your own vacuum pickup system from the manifold to the BB port.

Best $200 I've ever spent on any car. Just be careful and don't overdo it with your maps!!! Get help if you're not sure or unwilling to risk it. Several people have posted their maps on this thread, but remember no two engines are identical in these cars any more....

Hope this helps - good luck!
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