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2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71)
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Roger.Dylan
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:06 am    Post subject: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

So I noticed that when driving my bug - 1971 'S Bug (1600) - that the gears would sometimes grind when downshifting into second from third. This wouldn't always happen, and I'm wondering if its something mechanical or just the way I drive the car. Please also note that I am not use to driving these old cars. So I have a few questions:

1. When should I downshift into second gear? This may seem like a silly question, but Muir says 25 for later model bugs, which I assume includes this one? If I'm meant to be following the markings on the speedo, then that would be just under 30MPH, which for me seems a bit fast.

2. There is a lot of play in the gear stick, which may be due to the shifter bushing being worn out (I plan on getting this fixed). Could this cause my problems?

3. I can easily shift into second - always - when I am around 15MPH, which is where the gear 1 marker on the speedo is at (same place I shift into second from first). Would this mean that the second gear syncro is on the way out?

Every other gear change is fine. I am simply wondering about downshifting into second, because I can't seem to get the hang of it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

When's the last time oil was changed in tranny, is free play on clutch within spec. Do these first
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

practice the dark art of double clutch- where you speed up the shafts -with the clutch out in neutral- to match the engines RPM at that gear and then drop into gear.

First guess would be your syncros are not helping or you clutch is not disengaging completely OR it just to hard to find 2nd in the amount of time the gears have to maintain speed.

When mine do that I pop it back into the gear it came from -tap the throttle and as the engine rpm slows down I keep a light pressure on the shifter and the gear will drop in with out complaint.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Yes,bad bushing or coupler could let you rub reverse gear while shifting into second.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Agree with williamM. If you find that double clutching solves the issue, you probably have a bad syncro. Totally the case with my 69. Changing the gear oil won't fix it. Live with the quirk or pull the transmission. I've lived with mine for 10 years! I either wait to shift until under 20 mph or double clutch.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Syncro worn out (common) double clutch it............
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Roger.Dylan
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses.

I'll look into getting the bushing and coupler replaced, since it may be "rubbing" second. If that doesn't help, I'll have to either learn to double clutch or simply have a gearbox overhaul.

Regardless, where abouts (what speed) should I be downshifting into second gear? As in, if I had a "good" car, where would that prefer to downshift.
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SBD
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Just take care of the coupler and shift rod bushing and make sure the clutch and shifter are adjusted properly. Then drive the car and you should get a good feel for when to downshift. But keep in mind that these are low revving engines compared to most modern stuff. I've been driving manual transmission cars off & on for over 40 years and I couldn't tell you at what speeds I downshift in what gears. Under normal driving conditions I always go by ear and a "feel" for the car. It's kinda' like when my nephew called me and asked me how to adjust a carburetor. Think I can't really tell you HOW I do it, I just KNOW how to do it. d'oh!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

If this doesn't happen when you go from first to second, but only when downshifting from third to second, then I would first suspect that your shift rod bushing or coupler need replacement--or both. You may also be downshifting from third to second too soon. As a general rule, I downshift from third to second--like when taking corners--in the low 20's. If you go around corners too quickly and downshift, then you may be asking too much.

You may also need to adjust your shift rod housing at the shifter. But you'll do this since you say your shifter is sloppy and you need to address the bushing/coupler.

It's also possible for some drivers to downshift into second from third while using a very heavy hand. In this case--assuming a worn shift rod bushing--you may be kissing reverse while trying to get second.

Tim
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

while bushings can be problems....these trans typically always show up grinding on downshift when 2nd synchro is going bad...they will grind on downshifts before getting worse and grinding on upshifts...Dont force a downshift, and dont downshift at too high of speed/rpm...both will help, along with all of the above. If oil hasnt been changed in trans for a while..it certainly wont hurt to change it...but a change wont fix the downshift grinding
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Roger, I'm a newbie here too and I'm having exactly the same problem.

I suspect my transaxle has other issues besides this "grind on downshift to second" but that'll have to wait, other things (floorpans for one) are taking precedence.

I'd love to know if the bushing/coupler help in your case. I've ordered fresh parts as well and I hope this helps with my downshift issue.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

if it makes a god-awful high pitched grind and doesnt go into second you're hitting reverse and coupling,bushing and adjustment will help....if its just a quick ''crunch'' and it goes into second, thats a syncro and trans rebuild or driving style adjustment (driving it like a non syncro box) are the only solutions...reverse is a non syncro gear so if it goes into reverse ok its not a clutch issue
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Don't downshift until you really need to. Which is to say if you're trying to downshift into 2nd at the same speed you shift up to third, you're downshifting too soon - the synchros have to work extra hard to take this kind of treatment. The work around is to double clutch or give the throttle a little blip while in neutral between gears to get the input shaft speeded up for an easier shift.
A lot of cars, early beetle included, had no synchronizer on 1st because you were expected to never engage 1st except from a dead stop, if the car was moving you stayed in 2nd and didn't think about downshifting. If you're not racing, hold off on shifting down until the engine asks you to, and the trans will thank you.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Bentley page H9 has a service advisory from the '60s that mentioned this problem, and recommends loosening the 13s and moving the shifter ball housing hard left.

Since this is cheaper and easier than a bushing rebuild and way cheaper than pulling the trans, I decided to try it this morning. I guess the theory is you're moving the reverse lockout left, and your ball housing has "crept" right over time?

Anyway, I moved it way hard left, and couldn't get either 1st or 2nd. Gave up and started tapping it right again a little bit, couldn't get 1st, and tapped it back (rearward), using mirror-image theory (trans thinks your motions are upside down and backward).

Got 1st and 2nd, and I think I'm satisfied.

Also got to thinking how the stop plate can move independently from the ball housing, and there may be a magic relationship between them, i.e. they should be in slightly different positions under there, and me moving the housing back to the right a bit cleared this up.


Last edited by pbenn on Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:10 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Another little trick I've found to help compensate for worn synchro action, downshifting from 3rd to 2nd gear:

When moving the shift lever over from 3rd gear to the "slot" for 2nd gear, briefly push lever up against (but not fully into) the 1st gear position, before pulling it back into 2nd gear position -- about 1/2 second or so up against 1st gear position is usually all it takes.

Evidently you can use this alternate synchro action (between downshifting from 2nd to 1st) to bring shaft up to speed for downshifting from 3rd into 2nd -- think it has something to do with the gears for 1st and 2nd being on same shaft (but not 100% sure on that).

It still won't make for a completely smooth transition if you try downshifting from way too high a speed, but definitely works down in the lower speed transition range -- or does for me anyway.

Just bit of a "Band-Aid" that can be used, until finally getting around to rebuilding / replacing a worn tranny...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

I used to have trouble shifting down into second. I also had a lot of noisy vibration coming from the stick shift.
I had a new shift rod bushing, coupler, tranny mounts, played with the shift plate, etc.

Turns out the shifting rod was sloppy on the bolt that came with EMPI Heavy Duty Urethane Shift Coupler. I swapped out for the original bolt assembly that expands as a lag screw is threaded in. No more slop no more sound and shifts great!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:04 am    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Hi i am digging out this old post again.

I have the same issues on my 65 split bus.
I can't get from 3rd into 2nd while driving. It crunches and i am not ableto get 2nd in. Everything else works. Upshifting 1, 2, 3, 4, reverse too.

What i checked:
- Shift linkage, new bushings, new coupler.
- I adjusted the shifter 100x
- new oil
- clutch cable and bowden adjusted

I tried do drive with double cutching and even that doesn't work.

What can i try else? Could a sync ring be the cause? Something stuck in the tranny? Would a tranny additive help?

If someone has an idea, please et me know.
Thanks
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

It is the synchro. 2nd gear is the most used synchro. It is often the first to show its age!

Or the clutch disc is dragging. So, you could drop the engine and install a new clutch disc, plate and TO bearing. Then go for a ride and see what happens. You will want to install those parts after you get the transmission rebuilt.

No additive will help. The part on the shaft has served its useful life. Time to change it out!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Thanks Jimbo,

After you wrote about the clutch, i looked at the pictures of my engine before i installed it. It seems to be the wrong pressure plate because the engine was taken out of a mid-70ies bug. The 65 needs an early clutch plate.

So, i order the correct clutch parts Anxious

Thanks Wink
Gilles
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 2nd Gear Grinding - Downshifting (71) Reply with quote

Hello,
I installed the correct clutch and presure plate but the shift problem still consists.

So i have to disassemble the gearbox Confused

Gilles Cool
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