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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1693
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:35 pm Post subject: Opinions on lower tins |
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This is not an area of expertise for me as most all of my builds are rails or Baja and don’t have all the tins, just uppers and the deflectors.
But if an engine is going in a stock engine bay beetle what’s y’all preferences on lower tins? The “sled” type, super tins, none, ?? _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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b-man Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 498 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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Sled tins.
Along with a working thermostat and flaps, the sled tins guide the cooling air so the thermostat operates properly. The sled tins also protect the pushrod tubes and let the cooling air escape to the rear of the car as the factory intended. _________________ 1956 Dove Blue Panel
1966 Velvet Green Single Cab
1957 L41 Black Oval Window Beetle |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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b-man wrote: |
Sled tins.
Along with a working thermostat and flaps, the sled tins guide the cooling air so the thermostat operates properly. The sled tins also protect the pushrod tubes and let the cooling air escape to the rear of the car as the factory intended. |
Golden _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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There is also a set of rear deflector tins that I recommend running. Here they are on my buggy engine:
Oh, the sled tins are there too, but cut off just behind the first bolt where they attach to the bottom of the case. There is no thermostat and no filler tins to make up for the lack of heater boxes. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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Put them all on including the flaps and thermostat and it matters not what car it's going in. They all serve a specific purpose or VW would have never bothered with them.
The exception to this is a 1/4 mile only car. They don't run long enough to need any of it. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:47 am Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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I have a 1/4 mile 'street car' no tins to speak of just upper cylinder tins and the 'forget-me-nots' aka: butterflys,,,temps are good, I've driven it on 500+ mile trips too not just 1320 feet
_________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:10 am Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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All stock tins and thermostat and flaps. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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oprn wrote: |
Put them all on including the flaps and thermostat and it matters not what car it's going in. They all serve a specific purpose or VW would have never bothered with them.
The exception to this is a 1/4 mile only car. They don't run long enough to need any of it. |
Yes but...
If you are missing any of the lower tins, including industrial tins if you do not have heater boxes, I would recommend you NOT run the thermostat. It needs to be properly enclosed and ducted to insure it can measure engine temperature and open the flaps (or fan ring for older systems.)
It is a good thing to be running the full thermostat system, especially in colder climates or when the engine is more exposed than stock. It is easy to have a cold running engine without it. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15280 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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You ask for opinions.
On a Buggy or Baja with an exposed engine I don't run any of the lower cooling tin. Air circulates around the engine and they run cooler. An engine in an enclosed vehicle should run all the factory tin.
My opinion is the thermostate and flaps are only part of the heating system and have nothing to do with cooling the engine. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
You ask for opinions.
On a Buggy or Baja with an exposed engine I don't run any of the lower cooling tin. Air circulates around the engine and they run cooler. An engine in an enclosed vehicle should run all the factory tin.
My opinion is the thermostate and flaps are only part of the heating system and have nothing to do with cooling the engine. |
An unpopular opinion around here but I have a little to add to that. The earliest Bugs did not have a thermostat, the Type 3 from '61-'63 did not have a thermostat, and the later Mexican Beetles did not have a thermostat. Make of it what you want. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Don Jones Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2020 Posts: 198 Location: Makaha, Hawaii
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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My bug engine uses cool tins, velocity ring (from awesome powdercoating), Gene Berg type IV oil cooler (no external cooler), sled tins, industrial tins, deck lid standoff, decklid cutout behind license plate. Engine oil has never gone past 180 degrees.
Engine: 2161, C45 cam, 42x37.5 valves, 1 5/8" exhaust.
I believe in cool tins as it forces the cooling air completely around the cylinders before exiting. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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Don Jones wrote: |
Engine oil has never gone past 180 degrees. |
Water boils at 212* so you must have condensation mixed in with the oil.
BTW, engines are designed to operate at a set temp range. Too cool is not good as is too hot. This is why engines have thermostats. It helps the engine warm up quicker. Modern cars have thermostatically controlled fans to cool them when they get too hot.
My Subaru actually has a higher idle when first stated when cold. I asked the service manager and he said it's so the engine warms up quicker to reduce wear and increase fuel beneficent.
Do what you want.. i trust the VW engineers. I find it remarkable that a cooling system designed for a 1584 can easily cool a 2180. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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Glenn wrote: |
Don Jones wrote: |
Engine oil has never gone past 180 degrees. |
Water boils at 212* so you must have condensation mixed in with the oil.
BTW, engines are designed to operate at a set temp range. Too cool is not good as is too hot. This is why engines have thermostats. It helps the engine warm up quicker. Modern cars have thermostatically controlled fans to cool them when they get too hot.
My Subaru actually has a higher idle when first stated when cold. I asked the service manager and he said it's so the engine warms up quicker to reduce wear and increase fuel beneficent.
Do what you want.. i trust the VW engineers. I find it remarkable that a cooling system designed for a 1584 can easily cool a 2180. |
^^^This^^^
It's not about if the engine is cool enough, it's about ensuring the engine is NOT TOO COLD! The fact that the cooling system CAN cool a 2180 is proof enough that it can also get any other displacement too cold for it's own good.
As for the belief that the lower 1/2 of the stock cooling system is only used to produce cabin heat...
Well that one leaves me totally in a dilemma, just like when a kid asks me if Santa is real. Do I pop the poor kid's bubble and incur the wrath of the parent, or just walk away?
I think I will just walk away. Some day the lights will go on.
Or not... _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Don Jones Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2020 Posts: 198 Location: Makaha, Hawaii
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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[quote="Glenn"]
Don Jones wrote: |
Engine oil has never gone past 180 degrees. |
Water boils at 212* so you must have condensation mixed in with the oil.
Nope Glenn, no condensation in my oil ever. Water boils at 212 degrees (Science 101), but water vaporizes at a way lower temp. Put some water in a pan and put it outside, funny the water disappears even thou it didn't boil...why...it vaporizes.
This is where proper ventilation of you engine removes water vapor (if you even have any). Put the breather high on the firewall helps to get rid of any if it exist in your climate.
You run your oil temp at 212 and i'll stick with 180 and lower head temps to go with it. Hotter oil, hotter head temp, again science 101. |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15280 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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If your oil temp never gets above 180* your oil temp gauge is not accurate.
Oil temps have very little to do with head temps. Your heads are cooled by air not by oil. Hot heads can heat up the oil, but the oil does not cool the heads. Air cools the heads.
Normal head temps are around 325-375 *F, so 225* oil swimming around inside the valve covers is not gonna cause the heads to run hotter.
Read what the billion dollar oil companies say about using their products. Normal oil temps are 210-220*. Oil must get hot enough to BOIL out acids, minerals, and many other contaminants from condensation besides just pure water. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31271 Location: Hot Arizona
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Stinky123 Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2022 Posts: 128 Location: Grand Junction, CO
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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What sort of mufflers are those?
I may have a set and nobody can identify them. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
If your oil temp never gets above 180* your oil temp gauge is not accurate.
Oil temps have very little to do with head temps. Your heads are cooled by air not by oil. Hot heads can heat up the oil, but the oil does not cool the heads. Air cools the heads.
Normal head temps are around 325-375 *F, so 225* oil swimming around inside the valve covers is not gonna cause the heads to run hotter.
Read what the billion dollar oil companies say about using their products. Normal oil temps are 210-220*. Oil must get hot enough to BOIL out acids, minerals, and many other contaminants from condensation besides just pure water. |
I believe this post to be 99% true. The exception here is that the acids and minerals stay in the oil. Boiling water and condensing the resulting vapour is how you get 100% pure water because the contaminants are left behind. Changing the oil out is how you get rid of those. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins |
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Stinky123 wrote: |
What sort of mufflers are those?
I may have a set and nobody can identify them. |
They are from a VW Thing. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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