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Opinions on lower tins
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BFB
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:35 pm    Post subject: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

This is not an area of expertise for me as most all of my builds are rails or Baja and don’t have all the tins, just uppers and the deflectors.
But if an engine is going in a stock engine bay beetle what’s y’all preferences on lower tins? The “sled” type, super tins, none, ??
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

Sled tins.

Along with a working thermostat and flaps, the sled tins guide the cooling air so the thermostat operates properly. The sled tins also protect the pushrod tubes and let the cooling air escape to the rear of the car as the factory intended.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

b-man wrote:
Sled tins.

Along with a working thermostat and flaps, the sled tins guide the cooling air so the thermostat operates properly. The sled tins also protect the pushrod tubes and let the cooling air escape to the rear of the car as the factory intended.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

b-man wrote:
Sled tins.

Along with a working thermostat and flaps, the sled tins guide the cooling air so the thermostat operates properly. The sled tins also protect the pushrod tubes and let the cooling air escape to the rear of the car as the factory intended.

Ditto.

Max
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

There is also a set of rear deflector tins that I recommend running. Here they are on my buggy engine:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Oh, the sled tins are there too, but cut off just behind the first bolt where they attach to the bottom of the case. There is no thermostat and no filler tins to make up for the lack of heater boxes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

Put them all on including the flaps and thermostat and it matters not what car it's going in. They all serve a specific purpose or VW would have never bothered with them.

The exception to this is a 1/4 mile only car. They don't run long enough to need any of it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

I have a 1/4 mile 'street car' no tins to speak of just upper cylinder tins and the 'forget-me-nots' aka: butterflys,,,temps are good, I've driven it on 500+ mile trips too not just 1320 feet Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:10 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

All stock tins and thermostat and flaps.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Put them all on including the flaps and thermostat and it matters not what car it's going in. They all serve a specific purpose or VW would have never bothered with them.

The exception to this is a 1/4 mile only car. They don't run long enough to need any of it.

Yes but...

If you are missing any of the lower tins, including industrial tins if you do not have heater boxes, I would recommend you NOT run the thermostat. It needs to be properly enclosed and ducted to insure it can measure engine temperature and open the flaps (or fan ring for older systems.)

It is a good thing to be running the full thermostat system, especially in colder climates or when the engine is more exposed than stock. It is easy to have a cold running engine without it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

You ask for opinions.

On a Buggy or Baja with an exposed engine I don't run any of the lower cooling tin. Air circulates around the engine and they run cooler. An engine in an enclosed vehicle should run all the factory tin.

My opinion is the thermostate and flaps are only part of the heating system and have nothing to do with cooling the engine.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
You ask for opinions.

On a Buggy or Baja with an exposed engine I don't run any of the lower cooling tin. Air circulates around the engine and they run cooler. An engine in an enclosed vehicle should run all the factory tin.

My opinion is the thermostate and flaps are only part of the heating system and have nothing to do with cooling the engine.

An unpopular opinion around here but I have a little to add to that. The earliest Bugs did not have a thermostat, the Type 3 from '61-'63 did not have a thermostat, and the later Mexican Beetles did not have a thermostat. Make of it what you want. Confused
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As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

My bug engine uses cool tins, velocity ring (from awesome powdercoating), Gene Berg type IV oil cooler (no external cooler), sled tins, industrial tins, deck lid standoff, decklid cutout behind license plate. Engine oil has never gone past 180 degrees.

Engine: 2161, C45 cam, 42x37.5 valves, 1 5/8" exhaust.

I believe in cool tins as it forces the cooling air completely around the cylinders before exiting.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

Don Jones wrote:
Engine oil has never gone past 180 degrees.

Water boils at 212* so you must have condensation mixed in with the oil.

BTW, engines are designed to operate at a set temp range. Too cool is not good as is too hot. This is why engines have thermostats. It helps the engine warm up quicker. Modern cars have thermostatically controlled fans to cool them when they get too hot.

My Subaru actually has a higher idle when first stated when cold. I asked the service manager and he said it's so the engine warms up quicker to reduce wear and increase fuel beneficent.

Do what you want.. i trust the VW engineers. I find it remarkable that a cooling system designed for a 1584 can easily cool a 2180.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Don Jones wrote:
Engine oil has never gone past 180 degrees.

Water boils at 212* so you must have condensation mixed in with the oil.

BTW, engines are designed to operate at a set temp range. Too cool is not good as is too hot. This is why engines have thermostats. It helps the engine warm up quicker. Modern cars have thermostatically controlled fans to cool them when they get too hot.

My Subaru actually has a higher idle when first stated when cold. I asked the service manager and he said it's so the engine warms up quicker to reduce wear and increase fuel beneficent.

Do what you want.. i trust the VW engineers. I find it remarkable that a cooling system designed for a 1584 can easily cool a 2180.

^^^This^^^

It's not about if the engine is cool enough, it's about ensuring the engine is NOT TOO COLD! The fact that the cooling system CAN cool a 2180 is proof enough that it can also get any other displacement too cold for it's own good.

As for the belief that the lower 1/2 of the stock cooling system is only used to produce cabin heat...

Well that one leaves me totally in a dilemma, just like when a kid asks me if Santa is real. Do I pop the poor kid's bubble and incur the wrath of the parent, or just walk away?

I think I will just walk away. Some day the lights will go on.

Or not...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

[quote="Glenn"]
Don Jones wrote:
Engine oil has never gone past 180 degrees.

Water boils at 212* so you must have condensation mixed in with the oil.

Nope Glenn, no condensation in my oil ever. Water boils at 212 degrees (Science 101), but water vaporizes at a way lower temp. Put some water in a pan and put it outside, funny the water disappears even thou it didn't boil...why...it vaporizes.

This is where proper ventilation of you engine removes water vapor (if you even have any). Put the breather high on the firewall helps to get rid of any if it exist in your climate.

You run your oil temp at 212 and i'll stick with 180 and lower head temps to go with it. Hotter oil, hotter head temp, again science 101.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

If your oil temp never gets above 180* your oil temp gauge is not accurate.

Oil temps have very little to do with head temps. Your heads are cooled by air not by oil. Hot heads can heat up the oil, but the oil does not cool the heads. Air cools the heads.

Normal head temps are around 325-375 *F, so 225* oil swimming around inside the valve covers is not gonna cause the heads to run hotter.

Read what the billion dollar oil companies say about using their products. Normal oil temps are 210-220*. Oil must get hot enough to BOIL out acids, minerals, and many other contaminants from condensation besides just pure water.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

Run lower tins; they are not expensive.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

What sort of mufflers are those?

I may have a set and nobody can identify them.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:46 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
If your oil temp never gets above 180* your oil temp gauge is not accurate.

Oil temps have very little to do with head temps. Your heads are cooled by air not by oil. Hot heads can heat up the oil, but the oil does not cool the heads. Air cools the heads.

Normal head temps are around 325-375 *F, so 225* oil swimming around inside the valve covers is not gonna cause the heads to run hotter.

Read what the billion dollar oil companies say about using their products. Normal oil temps are 210-220*. Oil must get hot enough to BOIL out acids, minerals, and many other contaminants from condensation besides just pure water.

I believe this post to be 99% true. The exception here is that the acids and minerals stay in the oil. Boiling water and condensing the resulting vapour is how you get 100% pure water because the contaminants are left behind. Changing the oil out is how you get rid of those.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:47 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions on lower tins Reply with quote

Stinky123 wrote:
What sort of mufflers are those?

I may have a set and nobody can identify them.

They are from a VW Thing.
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