Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Won't start in the heat (SOLVED)
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
archicarp
Samba Member


Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 53
Location: Seattle
archicarp is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:20 pm    Post subject: Won't start in the heat (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Our 1990 Vanagon won't turn over when out in the heat for a few hours. It takes 3-5 tries before it will start. Coolant is at a good level. Even tried parking in the shade but not starting now. Starts fine in the morning but not when it is hot.

Any thoughts?

Thanks, Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
darfrazier10
Samba Member


Joined: April 26, 2021
Posts: 1
Location: Tacoma, WA
darfrazier10 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Following... (same here with my 86 vanagon) Constantly won't start after few stops (grocery, post office, store, etc.). I'd wait few minutes and it'll start without a problem. Almost like that everyday. Battery's good. Alt's good. Starter? Bad wire? Relay?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
fxr
Samba Member


Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2299
Location: Bay area CA
fxr is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Won't even turn over, or will turn over but won't fire up and run?
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SCM
Samba Member


Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3100
Location: Bozeman MT
SCM is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Ah hell, I'll add to the confusion.

Mine does the same. It'll crank and crank and crank then the motor will run but really badly. I need to feather the gas pedal for a minute and then all is good. If it's the first start in the morning there's no problem. But starting a second time after it's been parked in the sun for a while = problem.

OP, does that sound like the same thing you're dealing with?
_________________
'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ahwahnee
Samba Member


Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9775
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
Ahwahnee is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Only takes a minute to test the Temp II sensor though I associate that failure with difficulty starting a hot engine and not a 'cold' engine on a hot day.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
WiboBusMan
Samba Member


Joined: September 26, 2009
Posts: 141
Location: Canada
WiboBusMan is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Other than having the engine properly tuned-up with quality parts, and all, the theory that has been around for years, is that on a hot day, the heat in the engine compartment may vaporise fuel in the lines leading to the injectors. The result is that, instead of sparying liquid, the injector just spurts a puff of gasoline vapor, so not enough to get the engine to turn over on its own.

Whether the theory is correct or not, I have had success with this issue by the following procedure:

turn the ignition on, without turning over the motor;
wait for the pump to cycle;
ignition off again;
ignition on a second time, waiting for the pump to cycle again; and
only then turning the motor over - it usually will start.

Once again with the theory - by cycling the pump a few times, the pressure builds up to the point of overcoming the vapor pressure and gets liquid gasoline to the injector, ready to spray.

Like I said, whether the theory is correct or not, it works for me 99% of the time.

W
_________________
Science has sacrificed Truth on the altar of its narrative.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
archicarp
Samba Member


Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 53
Location: Seattle
archicarp is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

SCM wrote:
Ah hell, I'll add to the confusion.

Mine does the same. It'll crank and crank and crank then the motor will run but really badly. I need to feather the gas pedal for a minute and then all is good. If it's the first start in the morning there's no problem. But starting a second time after it's been parked in the sun for a while = problem.

OP, does that sound like the same thing you're dealing with?


This exactly what has been happening. We eventually get it started after several attempts of cranking with the gas pedal to the floor. Starts after that easily once it’s driven for a little bit. I called my mechanic. Since the fuel filter was recently replaced and it was pretty dirty, he thought it could be the fuel pump relay. I’m taking it to shop tomorrow. Any other ideas are welcome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50248

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

If it's not cranking it is likely time to pull the starter and lubricate the plunger in the starter solenoid.

If it is cranking I would dump some fuel injection cleaner into the tank and maybe four ounces of MMO and see what that does.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Howesight
Samba Member


Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3260
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Howesight is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

I am soooo frustrated with the phrases "it won't turn over" or "it turns over, but". What the heck does "turn over" even mean?

This has been such a bugbear to me that I asked Mrs. Howesight what she means when using that phrase. She said that "it turns over", to her, means that the engine starts. Oy vey!!

Okay, rant over and response to the OP's post:

A long cranking time before the engine starts, when coupled with hot weather, can have one or more of three causes:

1. The most common cause is a loss of residual fuel pressure. Your EFI system is designed to maintain fuel pressure in the part of the fuel system from the fuel pump itself, to the fuel pressure regulator, and the fuel injectors themselves, long after you shut off the engine. The reason Bosch (and others) engineer this into EFI systems is to prevent fuel in the injectors, injector rails and fuel lines from boiling into vapour. When residual pressure is lost, and ambient/engine bay temps are high, the fuel in the injectors and rails turns to vapour and that vapour must first flow through the injectors before liquid gasoline arrives at the injector pintles (the gas spittin' bits). The loss of residual fuel pressure occurs due to leaks at the Fuel Pressure regulator, the check valve in the fuel pump, or, most commonly, a leaky injector that dribbles gasoline until the residual pressure is lost.

2. The second most common cause is more than one leaky injector that dumps fuel in the intake manifold and floods the affected cylinder(s) temporarily until the affected cylinder(s) is cleared out.

3. The third most common cause is a malfunctioning gasoline evaporative system, dumping too much hydrocarbons from the charcoal in the evaporative emissions canister. Hot weather causes a lot of gasoline vapour to be caught in the evaporative system and a hot engine will not happily start if the normal starting enrichment has all the extra evaporated gasoline added to it.


As a crude diagnostic, have a helper watch the tailpipe when trying a hot start. If black smoke emerges when the engine ultimately starts, then #2 or #3 above is to blame. If no black smoke emerges, then #1 is the most likely cause.

The solutions to #1 , after checking to determine whether the fuel system holds residual pressure, (see Bentley tests) is to isolate the cause. Start with an assumption that your old injectors likely need professional cleaning anyway, due to age. Get them cleaned and enjoy the better running in all conditions. If that does not resolve the hot start issue, then the FPR or the fuel pump check valve are the problem(s).

Until then, yes, the kludge of running the fuel pump a few times until the fuel vapour is partly or fully cleared is a good temporary solution.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DanHoug
Samba Member


Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4712
Location: Bemidji, MN
DanHoug is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
I am soooo frustrated with the phrases "it won't turn over" or "it turns over, but". What the heck does "turn over" even mean?


you are not alone! the ambiguity of the phrase is so counterproductive to troubleshooting the very problem at hand! it's a nothing phrase the requires additional posts to clarify whether the engine cranks or doesn't start.

not dumping on the poster! it is a colloquial term common in some familial generations, handed down from Great Grampa or Gramma who literally had to "turn over" the Model T motor with a hand crank, like a turning hog on a spit. time to move on to more accurate terminology!
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com


Last edited by DanHoug on Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
steve244
Samba Member


Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 1638
Location: GA
steve244 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

I think it's from the days of hand cranked engines.

But yeah it should be banished from the lexicon of ICEs.

edit:
Arrrrrrg. should've read the post IMMEDIATELY before mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jlrftype7
Samba Member


Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 3548
Location: Chicago
jlrftype7 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
I am soooo frustrated with the phrases "it won't turn over" or "it turns over, but". What the heck does "turn over" even mean?

This has been such a bugbear to me that I asked Mrs. Howesight what she means when using that phrase. She said that "it turns over", to her, means that the engine starts. Oy vey!!

Okay, rant over and response to the OP's post:

A long cranking time before the engine starts, when coupled with hot weather, can have one or more of three causes:

1. The most common cause is a loss of residual fuel pressure. Your EFI system is designed to maintain fuel pressure in the part of the fuel system from the fuel pump itself, to the fuel pressure regulator, and the fuel injectors themselves, long after you shut off the engine. The reason Bosch (and others) engineer this into EFI systems is to prevent fuel in the injectors, injector rails and fuel lines from boiling into vapour. When residual pressure is lost, and ambient/engine bay temps are high, the fuel in the injectors and rails turns to vapour and that vapour must first flow through the injectors before liquid gasoline arrives at the injector pintles (the gas spittin' bits). The loss of residual fuel pressure occurs due to leaks at the Fuel Pressure regulator, the check valve in the fuel pump, or, most commonly, a leaky injector that dribbles gasoline until the residual pressure is lost.

2. The second most common cause is more than one leaky injector that dumps fuel in the intake manifold and floods the affected cylinder(s) temporarily until the affected cylinder(s) is cleared out.

3. The third most common cause is a malfunctioning gasoline evaporative system, dumping too much hydrocarbons from the charcoal in the evaporative emissions canister. Hot weather causes a lot of gasoline vapour to be caught in the evaporative system and a hot engine will not happily start if the normal starting enrichment has all the extra evaporated gasoline added to it.


As a crude diagnostic, have a helper watch the tailpipe when trying a hot start. If black smoke emerges when the engine ultimately starts, then #2 or #3 above is to blame. If no black smoke emerges, then #1 is the most likely cause.

The solutions to #1 , after checking to determine whether the fuel system holds residual pressure, (see Bentley tests) is to isolate the cause. Start with an assumption that your old injectors likely need professional cleaning anyway, due to age. Get them cleaned and enjoy the better running in all conditions. If that does not resolve the hot start issue, then the FPR or the fuel pump check valve are the problem(s).

Until then, yes, the kludge of running the fuel pump a few times until the fuel vapour is partly or fully cleared is a good temporary solution.

All very good notes and points as usual. Cool
And to add to the "What were they meaning", when they said... conversation..
We recently had a customer who said their Car was dying out after driving a while. We couldn't confirm this. We saw numerous faults stored for the Infotainment System, but nothing with the engine management system at all. So, we kept test driving it.
They finally provided a video, being frustrated with what we had run into.
It was their Infotainment system shutting down due to a failing radio/Audio Head Unit module... so you know, the WHOLE rest of the car that was important, was still running... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Razz Razz
They were just losing the radio and the touch screen..... Laughing Laughing
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ahwahnee
Samba Member


Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9775
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
Ahwahnee is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
What the heck does "turn over" even mean?


It's that hot apple thing at McD's.

But that was a good analysis you offered, very likely that the answer is in there somewhere and it shouldn't be too difficult to find where.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SCM
Samba Member


Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3100
Location: Bozeman MT
SCM is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

DanHoug wrote:
Great Grampa or Gramma who literally had to "turn over" the Model T motor with a hand crank, like a turning hog on a spit.


I just love The Samba. I came here for an mechanical lesson and boned up on some history at the same time!

Ahwahnee wrote:

It's that hot apple thing at McD's.


Are you talking about the OG version that was filled with hot lava then deep fried or the newer (worse) baked version? SCM = 8-year McD's staffer and 2-time Crewmember of the Month!

I was given detention in highschool and part of that was to help the janitor clean up after school. He asked me, "do you know how to mop?". I thought to myself, "pfft, I'll teach YOU how to mop". Then I told him, "yep, I work at McDonalds". He said, "oh, you DO know how to mop. Here you go (handed me the mop). You take floors 1 and 2". My highschool had only 2 floors.
_________________
'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50248

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

It would be fun if one of the automotive magazines would make maps of the country that showed local usage of certain automotive terms, with "turn over" being one of them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DanHoug
Samba Member


Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4712
Location: Bemidji, MN
DanHoug is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
It would be fun if one of the automotive magazines would make maps of the country that showed local usage of certain automotive terms, with "turn over" being one of them.


my wife's South Dakota family always said they needed to "put gas on" when the tank was low... this far north boy had never heard that term.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
fxr
Samba Member


Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2299
Location: Bay area CA
fxr is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

I can remember using a starting handle on my Grandfather's bull-nose Morris. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Oxford_bullnose )

Nowadays the starter turns over the engine - hopefully the engine will start and run.

So if the engine can 'turn over' that means to me that the engine isn't seized...
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
archicarp
Samba Member


Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 53
Location: Seattle
archicarp is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
I am soooo frustrated with the phrases "it won't turn over" or "it turns over, but". What the heck does "turn over" even mean?

This has been such a bugbear to me that I asked Mrs. Howesight what she means when using that phrase. She said that "it turns over", to her, means that the engine starts. Oy vey!!

Okay, rant over and response to the OP's post:

A long cranking time before the engine starts, when coupled with hot weather, can have one or more of three causes:

1. The most common cause is a loss of residual fuel pressure. Your EFI system is designed to maintain fuel pressure in the part of the fuel system from the fuel pump itself, to the fuel pressure regulator, and the fuel injectors themselves, long after you shut off the engine. The reason Bosch (and others) engineer this into EFI systems is to prevent fuel in the injectors, injector rails and fuel lines from boiling into vapour. When residual pressure is lost, and ambient/engine bay temps are high, the fuel in the injectors and rails turns to vapour and that vapour must first flow through the injectors before liquid gasoline arrives at the injector pintles (the gas spittin' bits). The loss of residual fuel pressure occurs due to leaks at the Fuel Pressure regulator, the check valve in the fuel pump, or, most commonly, a leaky injector that dribbles gasoline until the residual pressure is lost.

2. The second most common cause is more than one leaky injector that dumps fuel in the intake manifold and floods the affected cylinder(s) temporarily until the affected cylinder(s) is cleared out.

3. The third most common cause is a malfunctioning gasoline evaporative system, dumping too much hydrocarbons from the charcoal in the evaporative emissions canister. Hot weather causes a lot of gasoline vapour to be caught in the evaporative system and a hot engine will not happily start if the normal starting enrichment has all the extra evaporated gasoline added to it.


As a crude diagnostic, have a helper watch the tailpipe when trying a hot start. If black smoke emerges when the engine ultimately starts, then #2 or #3 above is to blame. If no black smoke emerges, then #1 is the most likely cause.

The solutions to #1 , after checking to determine whether the fuel system holds residual pressure, (see Bentley tests) is to isolate the cause. Start with an assumption that your old injectors likely need professional cleaning anyway, due to age. Get them cleaned and enjoy the better running in all conditions. If that does not resolve the hot start issue, then the FPR or the fuel pump check valve are the problem(s).

Until then, yes, the kludge of running the fuel pump a few times until the fuel vapour is partly or fully cleared is a good temporary solution.


Thanks for the tips. I'm going to give some more information about the issue and give an update.

This is a '90 with a 2-year old GoWesty 2.3, which has about 10k on the motor. Manual with likely original transmission. It runs well and smoothly.

I have had infrequent and random power issues while it has been running, but the most significant was about 5 weeks ago. After driving about 10 minutes, the engine was still running, but I couldn't get any thrust when pressing on the gas and in gear. I could rev the engine when in neutral. I managed to get it into a parking spot where it sat for about 4 hours. Then it restarted and drove fine.

My mechanic replaced the fuel filter after this. That filter was really dirty. That power issue has not come back.

The current problem is with starting in the afternoon. We are on vacation and the pattern has been the same for the past several days: It starts fine in the morning. Restarts fine when it is warm. Then it sits for about 3 hours until mid afternoon when temps are in the low 90s, although today is more like 82F. That mid afternoon start is difficult. Even with the WiboBusMan trick of turning it to on, letting the fuel pump fire, then to off, then to back on and start position, it doesn't want to start. I can hear the fuel pump buzz in the on position.

With the key in the start position, it will make continuous engine noise as if it will start, but won't catch. We make a 5-10 second attempt of this and then let it sit for 1-3 minutes and try again. Eventually it will start and run roughly. It feels like it wants to stall so we keep gas moving with the gas pedal. There is some smoke that comes out of the exhaust during this rough running period. Once we get it rolling, it takes about 30 seconds and then engine is running smoothly and normally.

Restarts after this with no problem.

I put in a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. The mechanic I took it to today suspects the fuel pump needs to be replaced since the recently replaced filter was dirty so we are going to do that tomorrow.

Any other ideas welcome. I'll report back if we find a fix.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ahwahnee
Samba Member


Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9775
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
Ahwahnee is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Based on that description, I'm liking Howesight diagnostic suggestion #2:

Howesight wrote:
2. The second most common cause is more than one leaky injector that dumps fuel in the intake manifold and floods the affected cylinder(s) temporarily until the affected cylinder(s) is cleared out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Howesight
Samba Member


Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3260
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Howesight is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start in the heat Reply with quote

Close to the fuel pressure regulator, there is a tee with a nipple that you use to attach a fuel pressure gauge. That test will reveal a lot. The Bentley manual and the Digifant Pro-Training manual have a procedure. I have copied and pasted the Pro-training manual bit below:

"Residual Pressure Test:

Pressure should be 2.0 - 2.5 bar (29-36 PSI). If not, there are three possible problems:
•Fuel pump check valve – Test by clamping off line from fuel pump.
•Fuel pressure regulator – Test by clamping off return line to tank.
•Fuel injector(s) – Test by clamping off lines from injectors to pressure regulator. If necessary, go to page 20 for instructions on leak testing individual injectors.

Observe pressure gauge while clamping off each of these individual lines. If pressure drop ceases, or slows dramatically, problem is in the indicated component. Use care not to damage lines with clamping device.

Note: If fuel exits the vacuum hose/port of the fuel pressure regulator, the regulator is faulty and should be replaced."



Let's assume for a moment that your rig has one or two injectors that are dripping and thus allowing the residual fuel pressure to be lost. That scenario causes two competing factors in hard starting. The cylinder(s) with the leaking injector gets flooded (only in the sense of too much raw gasoline, not hydrostatic lock), whereas all 4 cylinders will be starved of liquid gasoline at the injectors because of the vapour lock. Sadly, because it is a boxer configuration, as opposed to an inline engine, the fuel vapour takes a long time to clear or The fuel pump pushes and pressurizes the gasoline which only flows from the pump to the FPR and then back, through the return line, back to the fuel tank. Inline engines use fuel rails with the FPR at the "far" end of the fuel rail (by design) and thus clear fuel vapour more quickly.

For some reason, (today's cheap rubber seals??) my URS4 and URS6 Audi inline 5 engines have had more FPR failures than one would expect and the tell-tale is a gradually-increasing cranking time before the engine starts. These turbo-cars have a LOT of underhood heat, so vapour lock is common with the loss of residual fuel pressure.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.