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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51120 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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You have to attach it to the tube somewhere, I guess you could take the long route back up through the nose and out under the speedo to the column, but a small grommet in the floor just forward of the cover plate and a screw or pop rivet to the front of the tube is easy and mostly hidden. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Слава Україні! |
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MikeSoCal Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 47 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Thank you Busdaddy. The steering wheel is new and the steering column was painted and perfect so that is the reason I didn't want to remove it. I ended up soldering a wire to one of the existing holes on the bottom of the column, pushed it down in the tube out of sight, through the wire holder and connected the two. Worked like a charm and no drilling or screws. Horn works and no trace of anything done. _________________ Restoring a 1971 VW Westfalia |
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Ben Middleton Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016 Posts: 219 Location: England, UK
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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I've done all this work but the horn isn't working. It's not making a circuit between the brown wire and the wire on the column tube when I press the horn button.
Where should the steering wheel actually connect to the column tube so the circuit can be completed? My column tube seems to be completely isolated from the steering wheel; which would explain why it doesn't make a circuit once the button is pressed. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Ben, pull the wires off the horn and check them for voltage. One wire should have 12V to it and the other not. Hook the 12V wire up to the horn, ground the other terminal and make sure the horn blows. Once you have done that, follow the other wire, including your repair to the horn ring and make sure that when you ground it the horn blows. Once you are sure that all works, we can track down where the rest of the circuit is failing. What year is your bus? It isn't in your sig line or avatar. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Ben Middleton Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016 Posts: 219 Location: England, UK
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Thanks for your help. It's a '72 crossover. I'll do those tests now and get right back to you |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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your horn, stop lights, and brake warning light are all on fuse 12. If the horn lacks 12V check that fuse. If the horn has 12V and doesn't honk when the other terminal is grounded, then replace it. Often nothing is wrong with the system other than a bad horn. Some have an adjustment screw that can be turned to get it to work better. Over time the vibrator points inside it wear. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Ben Middleton Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016 Posts: 219 Location: England, UK
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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I haven't got 12v at the horn so I connected an auxillary battery to test it instead. I must have a damaged 12v wire to the fuse so I'll sort that out later.
The horn was blowing permanently once I connected the auxillary battery, without me pressing the button.
Using a multimeter, it shows there is currently continuity between the steering wheel and the ground wire, when it is not being pressed. To eliminate the horn ring, I removed the ground wire and tested it against the steering column. There is continuity. For reference, I attached my ground wire to the bottom bolt of the two which attach the coupler to the steering box.
On the Bentley diagram, I am missing seal 13. Any idea what this is for? Is it critical to isolating the ground circuit? |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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My understanding is that on the 68 - early 74 system if the column is grounded then the system doesn't work right. Here is a post from TCash that may help. You need all the insulators in place is my understanding.
Tcash wrote: |
68-74 VIN 214 2 164060
the beloved horn ground wire tab
70Crew wrote: |
There are 2 wires you need to connect on the steering column.
The first wire is the column tube ground. There is a short wire that comes off the main wiring harness and ends up right next to the steering gear box. This wire needs to be routed through the metal loop (A) on the underside of the cover plate and then attached to the tab that sticks out from the end of the column tube (B). These tabs break off easily; I have 3 column tubes and 2 of the ground tabs are missing (broken off). I attached this ground wire with the steering column, gear box and cover plate in place. It took a lot of cussing, a shop light and a pair of Harbor Freight extra-long needle nose pliers but it is definitely possible (see space G.... yep, that's pretty tight). The alternative is to remove the gear box which I didn’t want to hassle with.
The second wire (also a ground wire?) is brown and runs from the top of the steering column (C) to just above the gear box. The steering column is hollow and this wire runs through the center of it. The bottom end of this wire has a large loop wire terminal that fits around one of the 4 hex head M8 bolts that connect the steering column to the coupling disk and top of the gear box. There is a small gap (D) between the coupling disk and top of the gearbox which allows you to feed that wire (E) from the column and around the corner to one of the hex head bolts (F). I attached it on the bottom, under a nut, so that the contact was metal to metal rather than nut to rubber. I’m not 100% sure that is how it was done from the factory but it makes sense to me (anyone out there know better?).
Bentley says you are supposed to install the column tube first and then the steering column from underneath. That was not possible without a lift so I installed the entire assembly from the top. I did it alone and the only part that was remotely difficult was attaching the aforementioned column tube ground wire.
Good luck and holler if you have any questions.
Chris
(MiOdy81) |
Good Luck
Tcash |
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Ben Middleton Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016 Posts: 219 Location: England, UK
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Thanks for that. I think I've followed that exactly but I still don't understand how the column tube becomes grounded once the horn button is pressed.
Where does the column tube connect to the steering wheel? |
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kreemoweet Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008 Posts: 3897 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Ben Middleton wrote: |
Thanks for that. I think I've followed that exactly but I still don't understand how the column tube becomes grounded once the horn button is pressed.
Where does the column tube connect to the steering wheel? |
The steering wheel presses on the bronze spring underneath, which presses on the steering shaft bearing,
which presses on the column tube.
The #13 part you're missing is just a rubber band that covers the 3 holes in the column tube, to prevent drafts.
It has no function in the horn circuit.
You grounding issue may be due to an improperly made rubber steering coupler. They are not supposed
to be electrically conductive, but quite often they are, enough to make the horn sound whenever
the ignition switch is ON. _________________ '67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Edited:
Someone correct me if I am wrong please. My understanding is this is the electrical path 68 - 74. (75-79 is different.)
The steering column has a shaft and a housing. The shaft is hollow and has a wire in it. All housing insulators must be in place on the housing so it is electrically isolated from the bus chassis.
12V+ goes to one side of the horn from fuse 12.
The other side of the horn goes into the wiring harness and comes out at the base of the steering column housing where it connects to a tab.
The electrical path is from the tab, up the isolated housing to the top.
At the top the spring and ring on the button and associated parts connect the path to brown wire in the center of the shaft when the button is pushed.
The path then goes down that center wire to one of the bolts on the flexible puck ON THE STEERING BOX SIDE ON 68-74. (On 75-79 that is different.)
The steering box is connected to the chassis and chassis ground by its bolts. Circuit complete.
The hard part to grasp is that the column is isolated from the bus. Pushing the horn button connects the column the brown central wire so the return path is thru the brown wire in the shaft to ground via the steering gear side of the steering puck. When the button is pushed, the column will read a ground but when the button is at rest then the column is 12v+ because it is on the horn side of the button switch.
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Ben Middleton Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016 Posts: 219 Location: England, UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Thank you for your help guys. I've now confirmed that the horn button does work (but only once I've removed the steering unit from the support bracket). This means that the steering column is being earthed through the support bracket.
I don't have any of the 'plastic coated washers' on my support bracket. Are these necessary to isolate the support bracket from the ignition housing?
I was under the impression that the plastic piece that goes between the column tube and the ignition housing was designed to isolate the housing from the tube. Should I assume that I have fitted this incorrectly?
Thanks again
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kreemoweet Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008 Posts: 3897 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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The column tube shouldn't be touching the ignition housing with or without the plastic sleeve. The large rubber bushing that holds the tube in the housing should be holding it centered without touching anything else. My understanding was that the plastic sleeve was for preventing the lock bolt from dragging on the tube. For what exact reason, I do not know (I don't have those parts on my bus), but I suppose the cutting-off of the power to the ignition circuit is not perfectly syncronized with the extension of the (grounded) lock bolt, so that the unwanted sounding of the horn could sometimes occur when the bolt hits the (energized by the ignition circuit) steering tube.
The ignition housing is grounded when installed. That's why it has that little plastic ring around the top of it, so the (normally energized) turn signal switch housing won't touch it and thereby sound the horn. _________________ '67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
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Last edited by kreemoweet on Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ben Middleton Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016 Posts: 219 Location: England, UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Thanks for that info - it helps a lot.
Hmm, why do you think the steering column is becoming grounded once I attach the ignition housing to the support bracket?
The large rubber bushing was slightly damaged when I put it back on but, because it isn't available to buy, I had to reuse it. Although it still provided a complete seal, with only a small section at the top slightly cut away.
There also never seems to be any continuity between the steering column and column tube, even with the button pressed down. Very confusing. |
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Ben Middleton Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016 Posts: 219 Location: England, UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Sorry for the double post!
Just checked and the steering column is becoming grounded via the support bracket once I remove the key and steering lock pin goes into the hole in the column tube.
So it's touching something it shouldn't be? |
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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Ben Middleton wrote: |
Sorry for the double post!
Just checked and the steering column is becoming grounded via the support bracket once I remove the key and steering lock pin goes into the hole in the column tube.
So it's touching something it shouldn't be? |
VW used an ignition-supplied 12 volts to the horn. Thus, removing the key and locking the steering wheel should be a quiet event. It does not matter that the steering lock grounds the column tube AFTER the ignition is shut off and the key is removed.
Colin _________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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kreemoweet Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008 Posts: 3897 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Ben Middleton wrote: |
why do you think the steering column is becoming grounded once I attach the ignition housing to the support bracket? |
You don't have the key out/turned off/in the lock position do you? The lock bolt will ground the column when extended, but then it doesn't matter because the power to the horn (and other circuits) will be turned off'
ditto wrote: |
The large rubber bushing was slightly damaged when I put it back on but, because it isn't available to buy, I had to reuse it. Although it still provided a complete seal, with only a small section at the top slightly cut away. |
I can't see how that would matter, as long as the circlip and metal washer under it are not contacting column tube and ignition housing at the same time.
ditto wrote: |
There also never seems to be any continuity between the steering column and column tube, even with the button pressed down. Very confusing. |
The column bearing assembly is part of the current path in the horn circuit. It is supposed to provide continuity between column tube and column at all times, i.e. whether the horn button is pressed or not. You don't perchance have some sort of aftermarket bearing in there that fails to provide that function? _________________ '67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
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Ben Middleton Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016 Posts: 219 Location: England, UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Ah of course. It's only relevant when the key is in the ignition. Thanks guys.
Pretty sure the circlip and washer aren't touching the column tube but I'll double check.
I believe it has the wrong bearing in it. The later one, 74-79. Is this the issue? |
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kreemoweet Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008 Posts: 3897 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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Ben Middleton wrote: |
I believe it has the wrong bearing in it. The later one, 74-79. Is this the issue? |
That could be it, but I have no familiarity with the late bearing. The horn circuit was changed in 74, the column was still part of the horn circuit, but
is maintained at ground potential instead of being hot as formerly was the case. _________________ '67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
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mikewire Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2010 Posts: 805 Location: San Antonio, TX
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Horn wiring repair |
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I have a '72 and had to fix my horn circuit properly, so I have some practical experience here. I can confirm, it's kind of a pain in the arse.
Did I read earlier you are missing #13 in this diagram? If so, I believe that would cause a problem. I might have to run to my garage to confirm, but...without that plastic/rubber isolating seal, the steering column housing would not be isolated, and the horn would sound the instant the key is turned to ON (not start).
_________________ -Mike
@countdowngarage
@bigskyeuro
1972 VW Kombi 9 Passenger Deluxe w/ 2.0L F.I. VWAC swap
1965 VW Beetle Deluxe Bahama Blue |
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