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1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start (SOLVED)
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Ninian88
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:49 pm    Post subject: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

My first post. I have ben following this forum for a few years now and have found it to be a great resource, so thanks for everyone's input.

I have a 1988 Vanagon 2.1 WBX that has fuel delivery, spark and cranks, but won't start (sort of). My failure/breakdown was sudden. It was running perfectly, but after I stopped for gas and it wouldn't start. Nothing.

I swapped ECUs with a recent rebuilt one and still no start. I went through the Bentley and Digifant manuals and checked almost all I could for the fuel injection and ignition. Everything checked out to spec, spark, good fuel injector spray, but still no start.

My timing was recently set to 35deg advance at 3000 rpm, so timing was my last test. I cranked the engine while rotating the distributor to see if it would start, and amazingly it did. However, it's advanced by about 50 to 60deg to do so. While running, I moved it back to 35deg and it ran fine. It wouldn't start again at the confirmed 35deg advance. Tried again rotating the distributor and started with about 50 to 60deg again.

Could I have a distributor drive problem? Any input is greatly appreciated.

Steven


Last edited by Ninian88 on Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

Hi

How are the compression numbers?
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0to60in6min
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

Do you have a spare ignition switch to try?
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Ninian88
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies.

VicVan - It had a warm compression test in the spring that was about 130 to 145 across all cylinders. I tested cold (as is wouldn't run) at 110 to 140. What's acceptable compression? I can try again warm with the super-advanced timing.

I'm also in Victoria, so I'm sure we have seen each other out there. I've followed your FAS engine conversion as well on the Samba. Enticing option. We should meet up sometime to have a van chat.

0to60 - I have a new ignition switch spare that I tried. It didn't make any difference. I've had that problem before, this one seems different.

Thanks again for the responses.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:02 am    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

You have an 88.

Open the black box above the coil.

Pop out the relay closest to the frame rail.

Is it 5 pin or 4 pin?

If 5 there is a rewire modification to do.
This relay failing is a known issue and is virtually unobtanium. If you manage to locate one, it will be expensive.

I'll find the link and post it.

Scroll towards tbe end, Kam added a "how to" on rewiring ti accept 4 pin relay.
Page 48

http://oldbluesblog.com/files/DigifantProTrainingManual_SingleSided.pdf


Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

If your timing was advance by 50-60° I would not think it would crank normally. When you initially reset the timing how much did you change it? How long ago did you reset the timing?

Any spitting and sputtering or backfires?

Pull the cap and inspect the cap and rotor well

Maybe read Tencentlife's post on how to set the timing.

A nearly totally blocked exhaust can make it where an engine needs a huge amount of timing to run.
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DanHoug
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

Ninian88 wrote:
My failure/breakdown was sudden. It was running perfectly, but after I stopped for gas and it wouldn't start. Nothing.


how soon after stopping at the gas pump did this occur? right at the pump or minutes/feet etc after pulling away from the pump?
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

Ninian88 wrote:


VicVan - It had a warm compression test in the spring that was about 130 to 145 across all cylinders. I tested cold (as is wouldn't run) at 110 to 140. What's acceptable compression? I can try again warm with the super-advanced timing.

I'm also in Victoria, so I'm sure we have seen each other out there. I've followed your FAS engine conversion as well on the Samba. Enticing option. We should meet up sometime to have a van chat.

Compression is independent from timing. And now I need a picture of your van!

How old is the gas?
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Ninian88
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Solved - 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

Solved - It was the red wire on the idle control unit that had backed out of the connecter.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


VicVan - This is my van

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djkeev
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Solved - 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

Good find!

Above average skills.

Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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PDXWesty
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Solved - 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

Holy Cow - I never would have found that. Nice work.
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do.dah
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start (SOLVED) Reply with quote

THAT"S A THING?!?! Great examples of; "Leave no stone unturned", and "KISS".
Hope I learn something from this....
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Nice catch! And nice van.. I'll keep an eye out!
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zoti
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Solved - 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start Reply with quote

Ninian88 wrote:
Solved - It was the red wire on the idle control unit that had backed out of the connecter.


That's weird because that is the 12v wire to the idle control unit coming from the 2 relay box (fuel pump relay) on the left side of the engine and your van can run even without the idle control unit.

I would think that you had a bad connection on the relay but you did say you had fuel delivery. I can't think of why your van would not run with this wire disconnected but now I need to test on mine.

There really isn't any reason for the van not to start with that wire being disconnected.
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Ninian88
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start (SOLVED) Reply with quote

I agree with you zoti. That's how I found the problem (I hope).

I unplugged the unit and it started. Plugged it back in and no start. So I tried two known good ICUs and no start. Saw the loose connector and pushed it in tight and it started. Maybe it was powering intermittently with a close connection confusing something? With my luck it won't start tomorrow. Maybe I'm bumping some other bad wire? I guess I'll find out.
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zoti
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 1988 Van, cranks, fuel, spark - no start (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Ninian88 wrote:
I agree with you zoti. That's how I found the problem (I hope).

I unplugged the unit and it started. Plugged it back in and no start. So I tried two known good ICUs and no start. Saw the loose connector and pushed it in tight and it started. Maybe it was powering intermittently with a close connection confusing something? With my luck it won't start tomorrow. Maybe I'm bumping some other bad wire? I guess I'll find out.


There's not much to bump as the ICU has its own wire harness going to it. Maybe it's creating some sort of a short. I would really try to diagnose it.
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