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Type 181 Clutch Return Spring
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tallman206
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Type 181 Clutch Return Spring Reply with quote

In restoring the transmission in my Type 181, the clutch return spring was broken, so I ordered one from the familiar suppliers.

However, when reassembling the throwout cross-shaft, there is a metal "bell" shaped piece that covers the sleeve bearing on the outside end of the cross-shaft. I am assuming that the return spring is made to wrap around this bell, as it is compressed to go onto the clutch arm.

I have tried three springs already, and none of them seem to fit. In measuring the 'bell', it has an OD of 37mm, and the spring seems to have an uncompressed ID of 35mm. Without compression, it will not wrap around the 'bell', and certainly, when it is compressed to go on the clutch arm, it definately will not go on the bell.

Did the Type 181 tranny have a special return spring, or has someone substituted a strange 'bell' on this tranny. Anyone know the proper return spring for this application? It does not appear to be the 113-141-723-C part number shown in most parts manuals.

Jerry in Atlanta
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germansupplyscott
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is also part # 113 141 723D used on a thing. not sure what the difference is. the other possibility is perhaps someone used the guide piece (bell) and spring from a type 2 transaxle.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry, it is not your imagination.

There are 2 different diameters of cross shafts, early 16mm and late 20mm. Each takes a different bushing, spring, clutch arm, circlips, etc. All USA Things came with the large diameter cross shaft. The spring you have is for the early shaft.

The spring you have is 113 141 723.
The one you need is 113 141 723C:
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D113%2D141%2D723%2DC

This one is a mystery to me:

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D113%2D141%2D723%2DD

Both should work.
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oscarsnapkin
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: Type 181 Clutch Return Spring Reply with quote

I’m having a similar issue. Below are picture of my existing clutch return spring, and a new one that I purchased awhile back from autohausaz.com. The part number matches the one given in the 181 parts manual. However, it is much too small to fit over the metal cap (manual calls it a ‘seat’) where the clutch release arm goes into the bell housing. Anyone purchase one from thingparts or thethingshop? Was wondering if maybe the manual is wrong and I might have better luck with a Thing specific vendor. It is the correct AV code transaxle.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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buzzlatka
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 181 Clutch Return Spring Reply with quote

I'm having the same issue on a 1966 beetle


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



My new springs cam from j bugs and the local vw shop. Looking at the wolfsberg west website, their springs most resemble the original springs.


see the bottom of page 3
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=766870&start=40
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: Type 181 Clutch Return Spring Reply with quote

oscarsnapkin wrote:

Was wondering if maybe the manual is wrong

The manual isn't wrong.
What you have is a crappy aftermarket spring that is made wrong and doesn't fit. That part number is right.

Your AV trans is a Thing trans code. The spring for it is exactly the same as for 73 and later Beetle transmissions. This isn't a case of a Thing-only part.

As a trans rebuilder, I've seen many aftermarket springs. None of them are made right, and none fit properly. Some can be made to work. The original ones fit perfectly every time.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Type 181 Clutch Return Spring Reply with quote

buzzlatka wrote:
I'm having the same issue on a 1966 beetle


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



My new springs cam from j bugs and the local vw shop. Looking at the wolfsberg west website, their springs most resemble the original springs.


see the bottom of page 3
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=766870&start=40

I think your problem is the opposite. I suspect your old spring is for the large diameter cross shaft that was introduced in 73, but your car uses the early small diameter cross shaft.
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germansupplyscott
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Type 181 Clutch Return Spring Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
What you have is a crappy aftermarket spring that is made wrong and doesn't fit. That part number is right.


Could just be incorrectly labeled also. We carry mostly Bus parts. We get these springs from Weddle and they fit as they should. Weddle uses 113 141 723D for this spring. Their catalog page for this notes an interchange:

Quote:
Replaces VW part number 113-141-723-C and 091-141-723


Often these interchanges are the result of parts rationalization where several parts might have had differences and are replaced with a single part that 'sort of' works to replace all of them, or sometimes it doesn't! These so-called interchanges can make identifying and supplying the correct parts difficult, especially in online selling.

Bruce: do all the 20mm cross shaft transmissions use the spring seat?
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oscarsnapkin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 181 Clutch Return Spring Reply with quote

Just checked Cip1 and the have 113 141 723C and 113 141 723D listed separately, and it also lists them as having two different inside diameters. I have a bunch of stuff I need to order from thingparts.com, so I’ll check with Mike when I order. Otherwise I guess I’ll try out the one from Cip1.

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"It’s so easy to laugh, it’s so easy to hate, it takes strength to be gentle and kind."
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: Type 181 Clutch Return Spring Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
Bruce wrote:
What you have is a crappy aftermarket spring that is made wrong and doesn't fit. That part number is right.


Could just be incorrectly labeled also. We carry mostly Bus parts. We get these springs from Weddle and they fit as they should. Weddle uses 113 141 723D for this spring. Their catalog page for this notes an interchange:

Quote:
Replaces VW part number 113-141-723-C and 091-141-723


Often these interchanges are the result of parts rationalization where several parts might have had differences and are replaced with a single part that 'sort of' works to replace all of them, or sometimes it doesn't! These so-called interchanges can make identifying and supplying the correct parts difficult, especially in online selling.

Bruce: do all the 20mm cross shaft transmissions use the spring seat?


Here is a pic showing 723C and 723D:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The difference is that the hook end wraps around the clutch arm higher up. This should give more force retracting the throw-out bearing.
My experience is that they are both fine with either clutch arm. I don't even pay attention to make sure I install the right one. This is why Weddle gets away with the substitution.

All 61 to 2003 Type 1 transmissions use the stamped steel spring seat. For 61-72 German, and all Brazilian gearboxes up to 2003, they used a 16mm dia cross shaft. 73 to about 1980 German transmissions all used the 20mm cross shaft.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: Type 181 Clutch Return Spring Reply with quote

oscarsnapkin wrote:
Just checked Cip1 and the have 113 141 723C and 113 141 723D listed separately, and it also lists them as having two different inside diameters. I have a bunch of stuff I need to order from thingparts.com, so I’ll check with Mike when I order. Otherwise I guess I’ll try out the one from Cip1.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Don't rely on the cutoffs for the years the parts fit. CIP is very bad at getting the dates right. Look at the Type 3 fitment. Goes up to 74 when no such car exists!

Notice the orientation of the two ends of 723C in their pic. That is the way the spring should be made. Not like the pic for 723D.

The smaller ID of 723C makes me think that might be the spring for 61-72 (16mm cross shaft), and 723D is for 73 and later (20mm cross shaft)
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oscarsnapkin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: Type 181 Clutch Return Spring Reply with quote

Here’s the larger diameter spring that I just received from CIP1. The diameter matches the spring that I removed from the clutch shaft. Unfortunately, the tail end that pivots against the trans housing is much shorter and doesn’t even come close to being at the same angle. I have not actually tried to see if it’ll fit. I’m just going to reuse the old spring at this point.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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- 1973 Thing

"It’s so easy to laugh, it’s so easy to hate, it takes strength to be gentle and kind."
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