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Dummy Learns Transaxle
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nsracing
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Nice score w/ the tools! Some angel was looking out for you that day when you got those -for sure. How many will you have to kill for those? Laughing

With all them tools - complete looks like- not sure Bruce will speak to you now.
you can start rebuilding trans for people and put some money back into the expense getting them tools.

You are progressing pretty good. Just remember us little people when you have a giant tranny shop.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Checking back in a few months later..
Rolling right along. Cool

That very first box i did out of spare parts has been doing well in my Oval.
Shifting is a -little- bit stiff/notchy, but with new synchros, some new bearings, and a re-bushed gear carrier, plus the parts all came from different boxes,
I guess that's to be expected.
It's positive and crisp, doesn't make any funny noises and is nice and quiet on the highway, both coast and accel.

If there was any criticism, it would be that i might not have set the reverse gear as deep as i might have, because it doesn't go in as positively as I'd imagine.
Might just be my imagination - it doesn't pop out.

The one i did at Scott's is still sitting.
Because it got done there, I know it's good.
So I'm not dying to try it out and see.. Cool


Been going ape-shit on a few more - took another half-dozen or so cores apart and squirreled away anything good.


The '74-up Ghia FFF (Factory Freeway Flyer Razz ) is coming along nicely.
It's going to get a basic stock rebuild, as are a couple others here.
After the case got cleaned in the back yard, it was put thru a proper parts washer,
Then it was sandblasted, then epoxy primed and painted with single-stage DuPont gloss black.
I think this is my favorite way to finish these.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



All these factory tools make this way fun.
Often I'll just set these things up so i can smile at them. Embarassed
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here's a really nice shift-rib case that'll get built into a Berg5 for Brent.
Along with something Trevor might be interested in. Wink
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



That's moving me on to really looking at all these used parts and trying to decide what's worth replacing and what's best to just run.


In Tim's book he talks about the plastic bearing cages.
If they turn a dark color that won't clean up,
That means they got hot and might be bad?
Does that mean you don't want to run the bearing on the left?
Does the cage on the right being all dark mean it's marginal too?
They look fine to me and spin OK.
Not that they're expensive, but it'll add up to buy them all new.
Replace or keep?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



3.78 1St idler gears are kind of precious.
They don't sell them new AFAICT.
A few of these i took apart had the same issue where the thrust of 1ST gear was smeared into the 1-2 hub.
Here's three 1-2 hubs with different levels of thrust smearage:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It's a common trick to drill oil holes in the 3-4 hub (top),
But what about drilling oil holes in the 1-2 hub?
Like i have marked in the pic above..
Good idea?


Also,
There's two clearance notches on the thrust face of 2nd idler.
But not on 1St.
Now that this 1St has been surface ground,
Think i should add a couple of grooves like on 2nd here?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



It's easy to just buy all new stuff to replace anything marginal,
But painful to pay for.
Went WAY overboard with my 1St nice trans i took to Scott's,
And spent over a grand on what's basically a stock transaxle.

Now that i have a whole bunch more parts to inspect,
it's becoming more and more obvious what's good to re-use.

Also, it seems opening up some tolerances and letting more oil in can be just what a box needs these days,
Where it might have more power put thru, and get run hard in the heat on the highway,
But won't be abused off-road or at the strip.
Basically a built motor, but driven by an adult..
Looks like just make it nice and give it some more oiling..

At least that's what's happening around here lately.

I'd love to hear any of you guys' thoughts on this.
Learning more every day.

Big thanks for all the help.
Really fun!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

What's the current thinking on gear oil to run in your rebuilt boxes
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

I was wondering when you were coming up for air. Laughing

Yes - it is fun when you have the tools. If you care to do the work on a lathe, a small one will be fine. And you can use a toolpost grinder to finish all the hubs and things.

A surface grinder is nice too but the inner races require a cutter or smaller grinder wheel. I like grinding the surfaces coz it leaves a nice finish. It does not gall like a cut surface.

Do we see expect soon a trans shop from you? YOu can do this - you know.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Clatter you said
“The '74-up Ghia FFF (Factory Freeway Flyer Razz ) is coming along nicely.
It's going to get a basic stock rebuild, as are a couple others here. ”

Sounds like it would have come off a “Sport Ghia” model???? IIRC, the Sport Ghia came out in 1973. Would the trans be different between the two years? And for that matter did the Sport Ghias actually use a FFF. Do you have a range of numbers from the cases that determine a Ghia FFF? Loving your new hobby Cool
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

All 71-74 Ghia's with an "AN" code transaxle had the 3.88 R&P with .89 4th gear.

71-72 Ghia were DSC cases with the 3.80 1st gear mainshaft and 11 tooth spider gears.
73-74 Ghia were SSC cases with the 3.78 1st gear mainshaft and 10 tooth spider gears



VW never called them a Freeway Flier. VW never gave any name to a transaxle.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
All 71-74 Ghia's with an "AN" code transaxle had the 3.88 R&P with .89 4th gear.

71-72 Ghia were DSC cases with the 3.80 1st gear mainshaft and 11 tooth spider gears.
73-74 Ghia were SSC cases with the 3.78 1st gear mainshaft and 10 tooth spider gears



VW never called them a Freeway Flier. VW never gave any name to a transaxle.



^^^^^^100% true^^^^^^ Vw also never gave an engine a gay name, like freeway flier engine,, the dumb names are just a selling gimmick for people that have no idea what they want.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Oil groves will never hurt, certain places I'm not 100% sure how much they help either though. In this instance the thrust side of 1st is not the same of where you show the notches for 2nd. This is the thrust side for second though, so in my opinion adding those notches to first there isn't as critical as the side of first that's touching the pinion bearing race.

I've seen where the 091's modified to take the thrust washer from a swing box with it's two oil groves also had the face of the 091 gear touching that washer with oil groves as well. (Both mating faces had oil groves)

The oil holes in the 3-4 hubs....I'm not completely sold on how well those work. Drill them as it's easy enough to do, but not sure how much they help with how fast that hub is spinning. (The thrust faces I do think help as I can see oil dropping in there during stops, just not sure about oil going from one side of the hub to the other does.)

The 3.78 idler for T1's it might be where you need to use the 091 idler and complete the conversion there. 091 slider and 091 synchro besides the 091 needing machined on the pinion side.

I really prefer the metal caged bearings with single rollers, those plastic cages look good though. I think the real heat gets into the cages when you're in that gear, IE idling gear teeth don't generate heat like gears that are used to push the car hard. Imagine rubbing your hands together with no pressure between them and then increasing the pressure between your hands....which creates more heat?

4th gear also has the micro welding against the thrust washer, it's the gear moving up and down in relationship to the thrust washer that creates a lot of heat there. I've read and seen a lot of the vanagon guys fighting this, but personally saw a lot of 4th gear heating issues with the sand rails around here that did a lot of highway as well.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Checking back in a few months later..
Rolling right along. Cool

I'd love to hear any of you guys' thoughts on this.
Learning more every day.

Big thanks for all the help.
Really fun!


My thought is to defer to those that are wiser! Hope that helped you out!

Really. I love this thread! Thanks for continuing to chase it!

Also, thanks for sharing all that knowledge, not just in this thread, but every where else!

Good luck! And REMEMBER TO HAVE FUN!!!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

I don’t know anything about a Sport Ghia.
Never heard of it..

I do know that that the ‘74-up Ghia trans has the code AN on the case,
The 4th mainshaft gear has 53 teeth,
The 4th idler gear has has 60 teeth,
And by doing some division,
I can decipher that it has a .88 ratio!
Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
What's the current thinking on gear oil to run in your rebuilt boxes


Now, I’m not going to take the bait on another trans oil debate.. Not talking
Shame on you
Laughing

What I’m doing around here is using Swepco 201.
So far so good with 113, 002, 091 and 923 transaxle types.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
vwracerdave wrote:
All 71-74 Ghia's with an "AN" code transaxle had the 3.88 R&P with .89 4th gear.

71-72 Ghia were DSC cases with the 3.80 1st gear mainshaft and 11 tooth spider gears.
73-74 Ghia were SSC cases with the 3.78 1st gear mainshaft and 10 tooth spider gears



VW never called them a Freeway Flier. VW never gave any name to a transaxle.



^^^^^^100% true^^^^^^ Vw also never gave an engine a gay name, like freeway flier engine,, the dumb names are just a selling gimmick for people that have no idea what they want.


Thanks for clearing that up. I know nothing about Ghias.

The first box from spare parts is the Pro Bro.
Not sure what to call the next one...
How about The Metalcraft Missile?
Think
After the FFF it'll be the Spare Stuff Sweetheart.

I'm thinking they should each have their own name,
Rather than naming classes of transaxles like they do at other shops.
The one after next, I think I'll call it Dennis or maybe Dewey.
Razz
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Casting Timmy wrote:
Oil groves will never hurt, certain places I'm not 100% sure how much they help either though. In this instance the thrust side of 1st is not the same of where you show the notches for 2nd. This is the thrust side for second though, so in my opinion adding those notches to first there isn't as critical as the side of first that's touching the pinion bearing race.

I've seen where the 091's modified to take the thrust washer from a swing box with it's two oil groves also had the face of the 091 gear touching that washer with oil groves as well. (Both mating faces had oil groves)

The oil holes in the 3-4 hubs....I'm not completely sold on how well those work. Drill them as it's easy enough to do, but not sure how much they help with how fast that hub is spinning. (The thrust faces I do think help as I can see oil dropping in there during stops, just not sure about oil going from one side of the hub to the other does.)

The 3.78 idler for T1's it might be where you need to use the 091 idler and complete the conversion there. 091 slider and 091 synchro besides the 091 needing machined on the pinion side.

I really prefer the metal caged bearings with single rollers, those plastic cages look good though. I think the real heat gets into the cages when you're in that gear, IE idling gear teeth don't generate heat like gears that are used to push the car hard. Imagine rubbing your hands together with no pressure between them and then increasing the pressure between your hands....which creates more heat?

4th gear also has the micro welding against the thrust washer, it's the gear moving up and down in relationship to the thrust washer that creates a lot of heat there. I've read and seen a lot of the vanagon guys fighting this, but personally saw a lot of 4th gear heating issues with the sand rails around here that did a lot of highway as well.


Thanks for the detailed answers Tim.
WRT adding the two oil grooves to the cone-side face of 1St,
That's where it was smeared up the worst.
It was a little smeared on the pinion side, but it has the oil grooves.
Why did the non-thrust cone side of 1St get so smeared up?
Was 2nd thrusting the 1-2 hub enough to make it smear 1St?
Either way, since it was messed up as bad as it was, I'm thinking a couple oil grooves might be in order.

Also wondered about the three oil holes in 3-4 hubs.
The race hubs from Weddle have them,
As do the better 091 hubs too, right?
Must help to have oil flow there when stopped or slow i guess?

Then that begs the question of drilling the 1-2 hub.
It's been smeared worse than 3-4 on the boxes I've ripped apart so far.
Can't help but think it'll help.
Ever see a broken 1-2 hub?


All in all, these better boxes I found lately just seem to need a mainshaft bearing and gear carrier,
Maybe syncros and some teeth broken off, but that's about it.
Galled up 1-2 gears and hub seem common now.
I'm all out of good ones from early boxes.
If there's a free fix to be had by some grinding, I'm all over it.
If it might help prevent future damage even better.
Free is my favorite price! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
I don’t know anything about a Sport Ghia.
Never heard of it..

I do know that that the ‘74-up Ghia trans has the code AN on the case,
The 4th mainshaft gear has 53 teeth,
The 4th idler gear has has 60 teeth,
And by doing some division,
I can decipher that it has a .88 ratio!
Very Happy


I was thinking a “Sport Ghia” edition had a unique trans??

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=564969
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Good to see ya back Steve, I've always enjoyed your detailed and photo heavy posts. Don't let the trolls bring ya down Twisted Evil

Gonna start doing serial plates on all these with their unique "serial names"? Custom paint jobs to match their personality? You could have all sorts of fun with this.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

I've seen a couple gear boxes from the sand rail guys where the 1st gear shims were pounded down and out of place. That same box had the top of 1st bashed down enough that the synchro couldn't come off of it. I really want to say that the nut was bashed down as well.

I always threw out the stock shims and just used the Weddle ones as they're hardened and hopefully last longer than the stock ones. I think that's a big reason why you want to eliminate a gap under the 3rd gear clip. Basically trying to keep stuff from having a running head start before bashing whatever will stop it.

A big thing as well will be you'll hear different areas of concerns from different style builders. Highway bus box builders you might see more oiling mods and stuff for helping 4th. Off road and drag race you can see different mods to protect against shock loads.

My big wonder with the drilled oil holes is taking oil from one side of the hub to the other.

Specifically the 3-4 hub
Seen 4th's with hammer marks of the rollers in the ID of the gear, forgot the technical term for those. At first I thought those were trash, but in hide site and wondering more I would toss some gear sets for this condition.....but rarer ones I'd not reject so much for that. My theory is that a small lined indent will maybe hold a bit more oil and when the gear is free spinning those indents aren't going to be noticed with the roller. In a loaded condition the roller shouldn't be rolling along so I can't see the indent causing more gear backlash than probably the wear that's happening on the teeth themselves.

There is micro fretting with the gear and 4th gear thrust washer or 091 thrust face of the main shaft bearing. I've seen the 4th gear washers turn slightly dished and lose the press fit on the mainshaft. Gears has a good write up of that somewhere. I know the offroad builders are big about using the 002 bearing flipped to keep the cage in place and the 4th gear thrust washer.

So on the 3-4 hub I don't see oil issues and believe oil mods for 4th to keep it cool and lubed are good, but not sure how life critical those holes are. They are cool and I can't see them making the hub weaker, just haven't done them a lot.

Would be nice to hear Scott or Gear's thoughts on those holes and if they've seen them help out/ when they help out.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:

These teeth got broken off. Flip a coin on these ones.
Was glad to see Scott on the fence about doing so, because i was too, dig?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Tried to get an action shot, because sparks were shooting off as were teeth - like bullets!
Key here is using a very dull chisel, with a little 'tooth notch' in it.
Also backing up against a heavy 'anvil' but still protecting the gear.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Mendeola in the background of any trans pic lends legitimacy.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A surgeon will often marker things to be removed.
Can't be amputating the wrong limb!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Forgive my ignorance, tranny work is like black magic to me, but why do you knock a few teeth out?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Lingwendil wrote:
Clatter wrote:

These teeth got broken off. Flip a coin on these ones.
Was glad to see Scott on the fence about doing so, because i was too, dig?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Tried to get an action shot, because sparks were shooting off as were teeth - like bullets!
Key here is using a very dull chisel, with a little 'tooth notch' in it.
Also backing up against a heavy 'anvil' but still protecting the gear.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Mendeola in the background of any trans pic lends legitimacy.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A surgeon will often marker things to be removed.
Can't be amputating the wrong limb!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Forgive my ignorance, tranny work is like black magic to me, but why do you knock a few teeth out?


Cause a bitch was mouthing back! Razz

There's fat teeth that hold the slider in place when in gear.
There's also some skinny teeth that help guide the slider during a shift.
When the fat teeth get worn, the edges get rounded off and it'll pop out of gear.
Breaking off the fat teeth puts the skinny teeth to work holding the slider in place.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

nogoodwithusernames wrote:
Good to see ya back Steve, I've always enjoyed your detailed and photo heavy posts. Don't let the trolls bring ya down Twisted Evil

Gonna start doing serial plates on all these with their unique "serial names"? Custom paint jobs to match their personality? You could have all sorts of fun with this.


Ya, there's a couple trolls on here that really piss me off.
IRL you meet people face-to-face,
And there's kids that haven't learned that lesson -yet-.

If I'm going to have to be dealing with shitheads I'll just do something else with my time.

Too bad you just got a fresh trans i woulda built you one for sure.

If it worked right or not, well, that's another matter entirely! Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:

There's fat teeth that hold the slider in place when in gear.
There's also some skinny teeth that help guide the slider during a shift.
When the fat teeth get worn, the edges get rounded off and it'll pop out of gear.
Breaking off the fat teeth puts the skinny teeth to work holding the slider in place.

Any downsides to doing that?

Always a pleasure digging through your posts, btw. Cool
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