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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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runamoc wrote: |
Changing the drive cog does not change the lobe location for #3 cylinder. |
Thanks runamoc. I had to sit there and picture this and realized you are correct. The rotor will only fit onto the distributor shaft one way. This means it will always be in the same orientation to the one cam lobe that is retarded. I'm not sure where I got the idea that you could change which cylinder was retarded.
mj2k wrote: |
I did try to remove the drive cog, but annoyingly it gets stuck just before it disengages, like it's burred, and nothing will shift it. It gets so stuck it even stops the crankshaft rotating at all, so I didn't fancy forcing it any further... |
Are you running a mechanical fuel pump? The fuel pump push rod rides on the distributor drive gear. You cannot pull the gear up without first removing the fuel pump and its push rod as they hold the gear down in the case.
Do not attempt to rotate the crank pulley while the distributor gear is only partially seated. The distributor drive gear is steel... the crank gear that drives it is brass. The brass gear is meant to be the weak link and shear/strip before the crank is damaged. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Igpoe Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019 Posts: 853 Location: South Boston, VA
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:45 am Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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I'm just gonna throw this out there.......
Our motors are 4 strokes. Not only do you need TDC, you need TDC on the compression stroke of the cylinder on which you wish to adjust your valves.
If the OP took the picture of his distributor drive on the exhaust stroke, it would be 180° off, would it not? _________________ '73 super. |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4006 Location: WA
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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A quick test to see if #3 is retarded and you are using it as #1 is time (with timing light) time to TDC then switch the timing light to #2 and see if the timing advances (#3 is retarded) or no change (#3 is not retarded). |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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Starbucket wrote: |
A quick test to see if #3 is retarded and you are using it as #1 is time (with timing light) time to TDC then switch the timing light to #2 and see if the timing advances (#3 is retarded) or no change (#3 is not retarded). |
It's worth checking this. It is actually a small subset that used the #3 retard. |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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Starbucket wrote: |
A quick test to see if #3 is retarded and you are using it as #1 is time (with timing light) time to TDC then switch the timing light to #2 and see if the timing advances (#3 is retarded) or no change (#3 is not retarded). |
I had to read this a few times trying to understand what should be seen. I think I get it, but would point out that cylinders #1 and #3 are timed relevant to TDC (eg. 7.5BTDC). Cylinders #2 & #4 are timed relevant to BDC (bottom dead center on the crank pulley) and not TDC. You will need a degreed crank pulley or an accurate BDC mark to judge if #2 and #4 are running the same timing as #1 or #3.
When all cylinders fire exactly 180 crank deg from each other you should see something like:
#1 = 7.5 Before TDC
#2 = 7.5 Before BDC
#3 = 7.5 Before TDC
#4 = 7.5 Before BDC
When running a distributor with retarded #3 it would look like this:
#1 = 7.5 Before TDC
#2 = 7.5 Before BDC
#3 = 4.0 Before TDC <-- Retarded timing
#4 = 7.5 Before BDC _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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runamoc Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006 Posts: 5593 Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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Quote: |
a distributor with retarded #3 |
When I was just a grasshopper to the master, he told me never set the static timing on an engine using #3 cylinder because of that. I 'default' to thinking ALL distributors on an ACVW have the retard on #3 so I never use it for setting the timing or change #3 location on a distributor. _________________ Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 44 yrs - Plan B: '81 Rabbit Diesel LS Deluxe - Plan C: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs-
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
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mj2k Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022 Posts: 402
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:34 am Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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Igpoe wrote: |
I'm just gonna throw this out there.......
Our motors are 4 strokes. Not only do you need TDC, you need TDC on the compression stroke of the cylinder on which you wish to adjust your valves.
If the OP took the picture of his distributor drive on the exhaust stroke, it would be 180° off, would it not? |
I was checking the valve clearances when I noticed the distributor was 180 degrees out, so def not that... |
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mj2k Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022 Posts: 402
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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ashman40 wrote: |
Starbucket wrote: |
A quick test to see if #3 is retarded and you are using it as #1 is time (with timing light) time to TDC then switch the timing light to #2 and see if the timing advances (#3 is retarded) or no change (#3 is not retarded). |
I had to read this a few times trying to understand what should be seen. I think I get it, but would point out that cylinders #1 and #3 are timed relevant to TDC (eg. 7.5BTDC). Cylinders #2 & #4 are timed relevant to BDC (bottom dead center on the crank pulley) and not TDC. You will need a degreed crank pulley or an accurate BDC mark to judge if #2 and #4 are running the same timing as #1 or #3.
When all cylinders fire exactly 180 crank deg from each other you should see something like:
#1 = 7.5 Before TDC
#2 = 7.5 Before BDC
#3 = 7.5 Before TDC
#4 = 7.5 Before BDC
When running a distributor with retarded #3 it would look like this:
#1 = 7.5 Before TDC
#2 = 7.5 Before BDC
#3 = 4.0 Before TDC <-- Retarded timing
#4 = 7.5 Before BDC |
Ooh, that's an interesting one. Is there any easy way to tell if I've got a distributor which has the 3 degree advance on #3? |
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mj2k Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022 Posts: 402
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:47 am Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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ashman40 wrote: |
mj2k wrote: |
I did try to remove the drive cog, but annoyingly it gets stuck just before it disengages, like it's burred, and nothing will shift it. It gets so stuck it even stops the crankshaft rotating at all, so I didn't fancy forcing it any further... |
Are you running a mechanical fuel pump? The fuel pump push rod rides on the distributor drive gear. You cannot pull the gear up without first removing the fuel pump and its push rod as they hold the gear down in the case.
Do not attempt to rotate the crank pulley while the distributor gear is only partially seated. The distributor drive gear is steel... the crank gear that drives it is brass. The brass gear is meant to be the weak link and shear/strip before the crank is damaged. |
It gave me a bit of a scare when the crank jammed so I'm definitely not pushing that any further, I'm going to gently wiggle it back into place and swap the distributor dog through 180 degrees instead
My block, since it's a reconditioned 1600i, doesn't have the fuel pump drive (it's blanked off on the block) though maybe there's something else internal on these later type blocks which could be stopping the drive from being remved? |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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Other than the fuel pump/push rod I can't think of anything holding it down. But you need to realize that the drive gear has angled teeth. You can see this in the pic below:
As you pull the gear up you need to rotate it CCW slightly to slide out of the crank gear teeth it is engaged with.
I believe the early cases and gears had a non-circular opening and the gear had to be rotated to line up properly before it could be removed. But all later cases have round openings and round gears that can be pulled straight up.
From the above pic you can see the gear rests on a cast "shelf" in the case. Between the gear and the case is 1 or 2 washers. Because the drive gear is inserted at a slight angle the washers won't easily come off the shelf. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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mj2k Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022 Posts: 402
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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ashman40 wrote: |
Other than the fuel pump/push rod I can't think of anything holding it down. But you need to realize that the drive gear has angled teeth. You can see this in the pic below:
As you pull the gear up you need to rotate it CCW slightly to slide out of the crank gear teeth it is engaged with.
I believe the early cases and gears had a non-circular opening and the gear had to be rotated to line up properly before it could be removed. But all later cases have round openings and round gears that can be pulled straight up.
From the above pic you can see the gear rests on a cast "shelf" in the case. Between the gear and the case is 1 or 2 washers. Because the drive gear is inserted at a slight angle the washers won't easily come off the shelf. |
Thanks, that picture makes the design much clearer. It will rotate counter clockwise as it comes up, but at a certain point, I'd say about 1/2 inch before it comes out of the block completely, it just jams solid, and neither gear nor crankshaft will rotate any further. And from that point, the only thing which works is to wiggle the crankshaft bolt whilst turning the gear clockwise, to lower it back into place. Very odd indeed, since from the pic there shouldn't be anything preventing it from disengaging once the gear has turned far enough counter clockwise. All I can think is that maybe it is burred where the gear rides on the washer, and this is preventing it from completely disengaging.
Or, that the thrust washers are trying to come up with the gear, and are getting stuck and jamming everything solid. |
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mj2k Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022 Posts: 402
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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Hrm, removing the drive dog from the distributor didn't go so well, and now I need a new distributor because the pin was so well stuck into place, the ears snapped off the drive dog before the pin moved
So I might as well buy one of those expensive drive shaft puller thingies at the same time as the replacement distributor, so I can grab the gear properly, and give it a bit of a tap and wiggle in case the thrust washers are sticking to the gear. |
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mj2k Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022 Posts: 402
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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All sorted with a new distributor (probably a wise investment anyway since the original was rusty inside and had some lobe wear), that expensive tool (which can now go into my expensive-but-never-to-use-again tools box, along with my MB viscous fan remover, and Perkins diesel timing set), and a bit of tapping and wiggling to persuade the distributor drive out
Washers stayed put too, which was a relief... |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Weird one - the distributor seems to be 180 degrees out |
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Well done! _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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