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extremebuggy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:17 am    Post subject: End play Reply with quote

So I have had this old 1600cc engine for probably 15 years. Just sitting on a pallet in the back of my garage. Thinking about a rebuild. I pulled the flywheel off and thought “hmmm I probably should check the end play first”. So, question is, how torqued do I need to have the flywheel to check end play? I have a dial gauge ready to go.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

250ft-lbs.
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Vanapplebomb
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

I have actually messed around with this. I found anything over 25-30 FtLbs made absolutely no difference. So, for just checking to set end play, I just snug it up good. Or just a real quick hit with an impact. Makes the job a lot easier. No need to kill it with torque. It doesn’t take much to seat the flywheel.

Once you got the shims worked out, give her the beans and fully torque it. Double check end play. It should be the same as before. If it isn’t, take it apart and check for a burr somewhere or contaminates that may cause it to not seat properly.
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extremebuggy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

I snugged the flywheel up a little bit just with a standard ratchet and then set the dial gauge on the flywheel and pushed the crank pulley in and out. I could feel it move and the dial gauge read 73/1000. Wonder if tightening it down more will make a difference, or should I just assume the bearings are shot? Long way from 73/1000 down to 5/1000
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

If your crank and flywheel is "wedgemated" you have to fully torque them to check end play.

eQ
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

True, however, I highly doubt the OPs 1600 has a fancy aftermarket wedge mate crank. Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

What Vanapple says, it's just a metal to metal joint, 20 or 200 lbs. won't matter, you can't compress the flywheel anymore when its seated, end ply can be checked without bolting flywheel on, as long as the main bearing is tight, it's done by measuring. Bolting flywheel on and checking w/indicator is easier for most of us.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

Good to know. So this sounds like my 73/1000 end play is not gonna change whether the flywheel is torqued 20 ftlbs or 200 ftlbs. So, I guess that means I can either shim the crap out of it or split the case and replace bearings. Am I correct?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

I’ve read a few posts from ppl who didn’t torque to specs , measured thrust, then torqued to spec and ended up with gaulded shims … i got no personal experience doing that but makes sense to me, i mean you don’t check any other bearing clearances by only torquing to 10% of the torque spec.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

There is no crush involved in the thrust part of that main bearing. I too have not found any change in the thrust clearance by measuring and setting it at low torque values and then final torqueing it to spec. And yes I always recheck after final torque is done.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

extremebuggy wrote:
Good to know. So this sounds like my 73/1000 end play is not gonna change whether the flywheel is torqued 20 ftlbs or 200 ftlbs. So, I guess that means I can either shim the crap out of it or split the case and replace bearings. Am I correct?

You might as well know up front that the kind of end play you have found is above and beyond what you can shim out. You will find when you get it apart that main bearing saddle is pounded out. The only proper and lasting fix is to have the case align bored to the next possible oversize and buy new bearings to match. Anything less is very short term.

You have just found the first of the two most common weak points in the stock air cooled VW engine. The second is #3 exhaust valve.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

On an old engine, the bearing that the shims press against may be loose.
If you try shimming that looseness as though it were end play, it will still have endplay regardless of how thick the shim pack is. That leads to cooking shims, spinning bearings.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
There is no crush involved in the thrust part of that main bearing. I too have not found any change in the thrust clearance by measuring and setting it at low torque values and then final torqueing it to spec. And yes I always recheck after final torque is done.


Y’all do what you see fit and works for you, ill stand by my statement that I’ve never seen anything measured at 10% of a torque spec.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

Once a clean flat steel surface hits a clean flat steel surface nothing is going to move any further. If it does it was not clean or it was not flat.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Once a clean flat steel surface hits a clean flat steel surface nothing is going to move any further. If it does it was not clean or it was not flat.


Exactly. Also why I never did initial setup with full torque. It’s a good check. If there was any burr or debris on the joint, checking after full torque would result in a tighter end play than during setup. If it showed tighter under full torque vs just cinching it up, I instantly knew I had to go back, take it apart, and find the culprit. If I would have set it up with full torque, I wouldn’t have known until checking flywheel axial runout.
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extremebuggy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

Alright. So I took out the main seal. Found it only had 2 shims in place. The main bearing and crank does move when you push and pull on the pulley. Put a gauge on it just to see and got about 60/1000. Also, the case has been stamped “40”, so I would assume it has been bored to 40 over already. What are the thoughts of boring it again? Probably would have to go 60 over. Which would put it at 66.5mm. I know they make bearings that large, but is it advisable to bore again or just call it quits and junk the case?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

I'm still a bit unclear what you are measuring, but if the main bearing is loose in the case then that's a problem.
If the main bearing can move .060 in the case that's junk.
It is "possible" to fix such radical damage but it isn't practical.
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extremebuggy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

modok wrote:
I'm still a bit unclear what you are measuring, but if the main bearing is loose in the case then that's a problem.
If the main bearing can move .060 in the case that's junk.
It is "possible" to fix such radical damage but it isn't practical.


Ok sorry if I am unclear. This is my first tear down. I took the main seal out and the shims. So now I can see the main bearing. It moves with the crank when you push and pull on the pulley from the other side, so I put a gauge on the bearing itself to see how much it moved and it read 60/1000 when I pushed and pulled on the crank pulley. The crank and bearing both move together. This is all being done with the flywheel and the shims removed.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

Wow that's wrecked Shocked
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extremebuggy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: End play Reply with quote

That’s what I was afraid of. I know they make .38mm shims and it would take 4 to get that play out but not sure if it’s even worth it at this point.
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