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extremebuggy Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2009 Posts: 176 Location: Cleveland, TN
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:17 am Post subject: End play |
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So I have had this old 1600cc engine for probably 15 years. Just sitting on a pallet in the back of my garage. Thinking about a rebuild. I pulled the flywheel off and thought “hmmm I probably should check the end play first”. So, question is, how torqued do I need to have the flywheel to check end play? I have a dial gauge ready to go. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76762 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:19 am Post subject: Re: End play |
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250ft-lbs. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:33 am Post subject: Re: End play |
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I have actually messed around with this. I found anything over 25-30 FtLbs made absolutely no difference. So, for just checking to set end play, I just snug it up good. Or just a real quick hit with an impact. Makes the job a lot easier. No need to kill it with torque. It doesn’t take much to seat the flywheel.
Once you got the shims worked out, give her the beans and fully torque it. Double check end play. It should be the same as before. If it isn’t, take it apart and check for a burr somewhere or contaminates that may cause it to not seat properly. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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extremebuggy Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2009 Posts: 176 Location: Cleveland, TN
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:43 am Post subject: Re: End play |
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I snugged the flywheel up a little bit just with a standard ratchet and then set the dial gauge on the flywheel and pushed the crank pulley in and out. I could feel it move and the dial gauge read 73/1000. Wonder if tightening it down more will make a difference, or should I just assume the bearings are shot? Long way from 73/1000 down to 5/1000 |
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earthquake Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008 Posts: 3984 Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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If your crank and flywheel is "wedgemated" you have to fully torque them to check end play.
eQ _________________ 74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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What Vanapple says, it's just a metal to metal joint, 20 or 200 lbs. won't matter, you can't compress the flywheel anymore when its seated, end ply can be checked without bolting flywheel on, as long as the main bearing is tight, it's done by measuring. Bolting flywheel on and checking w/indicator is easier for most of us. _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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extremebuggy Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2009 Posts: 176 Location: Cleveland, TN
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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Good to know. So this sounds like my 73/1000 end play is not gonna change whether the flywheel is torqued 20 ftlbs or 200 ftlbs. So, I guess that means I can either shim the crap out of it or split the case and replace bearings. Am I correct? |
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1694
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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I’ve read a few posts from ppl who didn’t torque to specs , measured thrust, then torqued to spec and ended up with gaulded shims … i got no personal experience doing that but makes sense to me, i mean you don’t check any other bearing clearances by only torquing to 10% of the torque spec. _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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There is no crush involved in the thrust part of that main bearing. I too have not found any change in the thrust clearance by measuring and setting it at low torque values and then final torqueing it to spec. And yes I always recheck after final torque is done. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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extremebuggy wrote: |
Good to know. So this sounds like my 73/1000 end play is not gonna change whether the flywheel is torqued 20 ftlbs or 200 ftlbs. So, I guess that means I can either shim the crap out of it or split the case and replace bearings. Am I correct? |
You might as well know up front that the kind of end play you have found is above and beyond what you can shim out. You will find when you get it apart that main bearing saddle is pounded out. The only proper and lasting fix is to have the case align bored to the next possible oversize and buy new bearings to match. Anything less is very short term.
You have just found the first of the two most common weak points in the stock air cooled VW engine. The second is #3 exhaust valve. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2715 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:45 am Post subject: Re: End play |
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On an old engine, the bearing that the shims press against may be loose.
If you try shimming that looseness as though it were end play, it will still have endplay regardless of how thick the shim pack is. That leads to cooking shims, spinning bearings. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1694
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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oprn wrote: |
There is no crush involved in the thrust part of that main bearing. I too have not found any change in the thrust clearance by measuring and setting it at low torque values and then final torqueing it to spec. And yes I always recheck after final torque is done. |
Y’all do what you see fit and works for you, ill stand by my statement that I’ve never seen anything measured at 10% of a torque spec. _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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Once a clean flat steel surface hits a clean flat steel surface nothing is going to move any further. If it does it was not clean or it was not flat. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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oprn wrote: |
Once a clean flat steel surface hits a clean flat steel surface nothing is going to move any further. If it does it was not clean or it was not flat. |
Exactly. Also why I never did initial setup with full torque. It’s a good check. If there was any burr or debris on the joint, checking after full torque would result in a tighter end play than during setup. If it showed tighter under full torque vs just cinching it up, I instantly knew I had to go back, take it apart, and find the culprit. If I would have set it up with full torque, I wouldn’t have known until checking flywheel axial runout. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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extremebuggy Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2009 Posts: 176 Location: Cleveland, TN
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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Alright. So I took out the main seal. Found it only had 2 shims in place. The main bearing and crank does move when you push and pull on the pulley. Put a gauge on it just to see and got about 60/1000. Also, the case has been stamped “40”, so I would assume it has been bored to 40 over already. What are the thoughts of boring it again? Probably would have to go 60 over. Which would put it at 66.5mm. I know they make bearings that large, but is it advisable to bore again or just call it quits and junk the case? |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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I'm still a bit unclear what you are measuring, but if the main bearing is loose in the case then that's a problem.
If the main bearing can move .060 in the case that's junk.
It is "possible" to fix such radical damage but it isn't practical. |
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extremebuggy Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2009 Posts: 176 Location: Cleveland, TN
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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modok wrote: |
I'm still a bit unclear what you are measuring, but if the main bearing is loose in the case then that's a problem.
If the main bearing can move .060 in the case that's junk.
It is "possible" to fix such radical damage but it isn't practical. |
Ok sorry if I am unclear. This is my first tear down. I took the main seal out and the shims. So now I can see the main bearing. It moves with the crank when you push and pull on the pulley from the other side, so I put a gauge on the bearing itself to see how much it moved and it read 60/1000 when I pushed and pulled on the crank pulley. The crank and bearing both move together. This is all being done with the flywheel and the shims removed. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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Wow that's wrecked |
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extremebuggy Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2009 Posts: 176 Location: Cleveland, TN
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: End play |
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That’s what I was afraid of. I know they make .38mm shims and it would take 4 to get that play out but not sure if it’s even worth it at this point. |
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