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Don Jones Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2020 Posts: 198 Location: Makaha, Hawaii
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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Make a portable system so you can remove it when not used. The O2 sensor that came with the AEM kit died after 10 minutes of use. Bought a lifetime guaranteed one of amazon and still working.
I take the long 02 wire from the back, run it thru my weber window and thru the pop-out window and take power / tach (connected to dashboard tach) from the front of the car and the portable fits right on the passenger seat.
I hook up the portable, get my son-on-law to film it while i concentrate on driving and have a bunch of records charted to see where i need to make changes. Film it so you can go back and review what readings you get at 2000, 2500, 3000 etc. When done, easy removal. Don't leave the o2 sensor in for a long period as it will die unless you're using unleaded gas.
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Slow 1200 Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004 Posts: 2103
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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RandyV wrote: |
Driving around town she runs mostly well, except in infamous "transition"
Approx 2,500rpm (or so)
Hesitation/stutter less pronounced when cold, moreso when warmed up
) |
if that's true sounds like it's too rich during transition, not too lean |
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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Slow 1200 wrote: |
RandyV wrote: |
Driving around town she runs mostly well, except in infamous "transition"
Approx 2,500rpm (or so)
Hesitation/stutter less pronounced when cold, moreso when warmed up
) |
if that's true sounds like it's too rich during transition, not too lean |
As the jets got down, the problem gets worse.
Innovate AFR on its way today.
I’ll record data, post and then we can move beyond AFR. |
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Guack007 Samba Member
Joined: June 23, 2009 Posts: 87 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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I noticed that you said you have a magna spark 2, have you tried the different springs that come with it? I found that running the lightest springs (Blue+Blue) brought in the advance earlier, right around 2500 RPM, so it might fix your issue
http://cbperformance.net/pdf/MagnasparkIIDistributorInstructionSheet.pdf |
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boxer74 Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2011 Posts: 702 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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+1
I have the MS II and found that the blue+blue spring combo and black bushing (largest) advanced quickest and also allowed for a higher initial advance.
In the end, I needed to swap to F7 emulsion tubes to lose the hesitation for good. _________________ 74 Super
84 Westy |
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Don Jones Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2020 Posts: 198 Location: Makaha, Hawaii
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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I too had that 2000-2500 rpm hesitation. I have 44 idf's and was running 50 idles / 200 airs / 150 mains. Changed to 55 idles / 200 airs / 140 mains and it runs great now, very smooth. |
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W1K1 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004 Posts: 4897 Location: Southern AB
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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Quote: |
was running 50 idles / 200 airs / 150 mains. Changed to 55 idles |
that's a big leap in jets, have you had a O2 sensor on it to see what the AFR is/was? _________________ http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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Don Jones Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2020 Posts: 198 Location: Makaha, Hawaii
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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W1K1 wrote: |
Quote: |
was running 50 idles / 200 airs / 150 mains. Changed to 55 idles / 200 airs / 140 mains |
that's a big leap in jets, have you had a O2 sensor on it to see what the AFR is/was? |
Yes, i have an afr...big leap? 50 to 55 idles a big leap?
52 had a hesitation
50 hesitation worst
2161 w/ scat c45 cam, 42 x 37.5 heads, 1 5/8" sidewinder exhaust and dual 44 webers.
44 webers
idles - 55
airs - 200
mains - 140
E-Tubes - F11
About 50 ft above sea level
idles @ 12.9 - 13.1
2000 - 13.8
2500 - 12.8
3000 - 11.7
3500 - 11.3
4000 - 12.3
4500 - 13.0
5000 - 13.2
5300 - 13.7
Light Cruise - 13.1 - 13.5 |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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A fat mixture seems to cover a lot of sins in my experiance. With a manual choke with the butterfly on top you could sell a car that ran pretty bad by pulling the choke on part way. Smoothed it out a lot! That's an old used car sales trick from back in the 60's.
Your 3000 to 4000 range does look pretty fat to me. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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Don Jones wrote: |
I too had that 2000-2500 rpm hesitation. I have 44 idf's and was running 50 idles / 200 airs / 150 mains. Changed to 55 idles / 200 airs / 140 mains and it runs great now, very smooth. |
My situation sounds very similar to yours. And my jump was from 52 to 57 idles (didn't have any 55's available on that day) but like you, 52 did not work, 50 was worse but 57 was like night & day! SO MUCH rides on that idle circuit. Did I say that loud enough? S-O......M-U-CH rides on the idle circuit!!!!
I've since gotten my hands on 55's so they work well....(and as Redline will tout EMPHATICALLY.....your idles are correct when you are 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 turns out and idling well. (With butterflies not exceeding 1/2 turn on speed screw and mixture @ 1-1/4", I know my baseline is 100% proper)
After that....mains & airs are quite forgiving. I can run on 145 mains & 185 airs....155 mains & 195 airs.....160 mains and 200 airs and quite a bit in between. I'm currently running 160/200 as that narrows the gap between idle circuit dropoff and main circuit pickup and will be staying there until the real culprit in all of this reveals itself.
I will give the blue/blue on the Magnaspark a try out of curiosity. My builder is convinced not much will come of it since my cam is rather mild but having only ever been a 009 user, I'm curious to see what changing advance actually does to this motor.
Though I've seen folks say otherwise, I spoke with Redline today who swore that zero-bypass acc pump valves have ONLY ever improved transition. (Note to Redline...."Then why don't you include them with every set of Webers?") |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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I’ve gone round and round with jetting many times in the past.
Perfection is out there. Seen it IRL.
There’s a lot of unanticipated surprise problems possible.
Bent throttle shafts, internal passages plugged, etc.
Then of course there’s ignition, cam, compression, valavetrain…
On and on. Anything is possible.
Only way to know what is going on is to have your wideband working.
You make ONE change, and then go test drive to see if the AFR is responding in the correct way.
Take notes, try another change, record results.
Wash, rinse, repeat until carbureted nirvana has been attained.
From what you say about mains/airs not responding,
It does seem there is an internal problem of some sort. _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7375
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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Add to that different fuel blends, purchasing from different gas stations, winter/summer blends. higher percentage of ethanol.
Lots of variables for sure.
Regardless you should be able to tune out a hesitation with some testing and patience. |
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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Sorry so long.....been a busy work week. So whilst prepping carb set #2 I did get a chance to change Magnaspark springs to blue/blue. No joy. Same.
I have rec'd wideband and will try to setup this weekend (along with new carbs)
I am itching to pull carb set #1 apart again to go after any debris but deep down I know there shouldn't be. I did a ridiculously thorough job of cleaning them last time and they were already brand new.
I have also acquired 34mm venturis, zero bypass valves and even more jets for giggles. My mechanical mantra, however, is one thing at a time.
So.....I will need some patience but it's not my strength. |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2714 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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Your AFR readings are richer than my 1641 with the choke on to cover up your lack of air speed in the vents.
Smaller vents and it will then need smaller jets, run leaner and be crisper.
At 11:1 evaporating the unburnt fuel is losing power. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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King_vw61 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2018 Posts: 1383 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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The next post from Randy will be a long one. I spent the morning with him doing test after test. Lots of info learned. Some was baffling. I will let him tell the story. _________________ 1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7375
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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Looking fwd to reading about the progress.
Every combo is a little different so hopefully he is getting closer to be dialed in. |
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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OK, get a cup of coffee.........here we go........
First I have to eat crow.........I swore there'd be a lean spike....SWORE IT....and there was not. FAT on AFR cruising at around 10-11 and then dipping into the 9's when the hiccup would start to happen.
BUT..... as we dropped from 57 to 55 idles and went from 160 main/200 air down to 145/200 AFR improved but hiccup still happens. It can do it dipping into the 9's, 10's and even saw it at times in the 11's.
So not sure where the hiccup actually comes from.
We even put in 240 airs........(Yes, Mildred....240 airs).....with 145 mains just to see if we could get AFR up and sure enough....at full throttle we got out of the 12's and into the 14's!! So at least we could see a reaction. (Back to 200 airs to be safe)
Here comes the good part ---------> For giggles, we pulled the main stacks out completely (I always wanted to do it anyway thx to Sera's YT videos) and guess what happened???
(dramatic pause)
.........She drove like a finely tuned Jaguar. SMOOTH AS SILK!!! Better yet.......well above 3,000rpm for sure! (I'd say 3,500rpm guessing)........ NO MAIN STACK!!!!!!
Of course putting my foot into it falls on its face but driving around town normally, you could call it the most FINELY TUNED DUAL CARBURETED MOTOR ON THE PLANET!
So............Why did pulling the main stacks have that affect??????????? (That's a serious question as I truly don't know)
Back in went the main stacks at 55/145/200 since a 3rd gear pull showed 12.8 on AFR. (Somebody here said "tune for that & the rest is gravy"). Well not so much.........I'm still fat down low but I'd honestly live with that if this is as good as it gets.
There's still a slight stumble but that combo masks it about as well as I've seen (really close to "good" but not 100%) and the ONLY thing that completely eliminates it is pulling the main stacks completely. (Again...baffling)
Last but not least ------> I also installed new Kipa Chinese clones but didn't get far. (Had an inlet leak on the side I reversed the inlet for rear facing hose ..........((the plug side is leaking))............even though I snugged inlet + plug back up the same...... and need to balance barrels on that same carb even though I thought I calibrated with throttle shaft screws.......(about .5 off in airspeed).......need to check that again or use air bypass screws to compensate and I'll try that again today).
Long enough read ???? |
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rs58rag Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2010 Posts: 419 Location: riverside,ca
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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Are you sure air/fuel mixture screws are set properly?. Are you adjusting them while idling or presetting them before installation? |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7375
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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So what jetting and float settings and emulsion tubes are you running now and did you verify the jet sizes?
What is your WOT pedal to the metal reading in third gear going up an incline or onto the freeway onramp?
Where are you seeing the hesitation and rich readings?
When you were running without the main jet stack did you go down on idle jets and warm up and readjust all of the mixture screws until you reached a jet where it popped and didn't like it? Usually the next jet 1/2 size larger is where your idles should be after that type of test.
Bigger airs make the mains come in sooner so it becomes richer sooner and they also lean out the top end. It is two fold. The air comes in those jets to the main fuel bowl and push the fuel up through the jet, emulsion tube and into the venturi and carb throat.
Glad to see you are making progress and almost there. |
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Pursuing Weber 44 IDF Perfection......(Pipe dream?) |
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So got Kipa carbs fixed.....(plug side of fuel inlet needed some tightening and I checked all 3 to be safe.)
Then to fix the air speed imbalance I pulled carb off manifold again and loosened butterfly screws and as definitely able to get more movement. In fact I almost felt like I could keep going until the throttle linkage arm would have no further to go. (Flicked the throttle arm a couple times to see if the'd snap to a happy place but nothing super evident but definitely closed up more). I snugged screws back up and now linkage arm was just barely off the stop arm. (shrug)
Put carb back on, everything back together fired her up and she ran. Took her for a drive and hesitation virtually gone. (nice) But.....I noticed idle was funky. Back on gas and sensed a cylinder that sounded funky but came back to life once I stepped on the gas again and could drive like normal. (felt like 4 cylinders firing).
Then I pulled over to see if I could up idle a smidge and check mixture screws since it would be warmer now but got no reaction out of lefft side mixture screws. So I turned up left side carb idle speed screw and then they started to react a tiny bit. Got to "ok" and back in & drove home. Still smooth driving but still idling funky.
Came home.......threw the snail on & still at about 3.75 on right side but left side (3 & 4) both holes were virtually zero.
(Strange is one word)
At idle, 3 & 4 are dead when I pull plug wires though I can get 4 to come back or a second as I reconnect plug wire to cap (and get a nice little jolt) but then dies again right away. Pulled 3 & 4 plugs and they look fine.
(for 74 thing.....floats at 11mm & 28mm on both sets of carbs)
(Yes I alway wait to adjust mixture screws til after hot or sure)
(with stacks out, kept the same 55 idles as with the stacks in)
(No tach so hesitation estimated at between 2000-2500rpm)
(per earlier post 55/145/200 stack was 12.8 AFR at approx 6,000rpm) |
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