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vdubjiunkie Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017 Posts: 99 Location: Northwest Arkansas
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:51 am Post subject: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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Hello all,
I'm back on the hunt for knowledge. The headlight relay for the push button dash is a 6 pin, with pins 30, 56, 56a, S, F & J. It's not too terribly difficult to find 5 pin relays, and I've found a couple of places claiming to have a Hella 91/46-3-12V relay for no less than $90. However, not only do I not want to pay that much, but I'd also love to figure a way to connect all the wires to readily available 12V relays.
So, what I'm looking for is a diagram for this relay. The 311 941 583A is only a 5 pin relay, so that's not what I'm looking for. Does anybody know where I can find the pinout for this 6 pin relay? I'm sure 30, 56 and 56a are what one would expect. However, I don't know how to determine what the rest do.
S is only a .5mm wire, so likely a ground signal coming from the turn signal assembly, it seems. Perhaps this triggers whichever parking light when you flip the signal lever one way or the other, and the key is not in the on position.
F & J I really don't know about. The 5 pin relay has F & S, but no J.
Even if you don't have the entire answer for me, I'd love to hear guesses, or point me in the direction of something. I found a link to an article about understanding euro wiring diagrams, but I believe F, S & J are VW specific, in this case. _________________ 1964 Type 3 Notchback
1969 Karmann Ghia shell in need of full body off restoration
2004 WRX
"It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It" - Upton Sinclair |
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andybla Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2014 Posts: 630 Location: BE
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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Hi,
I don't know if i can help you but this is the basic schematics for a relay
You have the + and - contacts coming to the relay, and the relay has one or more open or closed contacts/combinations in rest in the relay that work (go open, close) when there is power put onto that contacts
For example these two diagrams (on second look in the middle left, just below the fuse box), you have the
56 is + wire
S is push button
56A and F going to headlight bulb with othere headlight wire going to ground
J wire looks to be the - wire
30 also looks to be + wire, this i am confused about with the 56 wire
Found also this
56 is the power in from the headlight switch, 56a is the high beam, F is the low beam, and S is the trigger from the switch in the turn signal arm.
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vdubjiunkie Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017 Posts: 99 Location: Northwest Arkansas
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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Ok, I think this may be going somewhere in my brain.
The J is a brown wire in my T3 diagram, so that should be a ground. Maybe I don't necessarily need to know specifically ground for what, just that it is a ground from the relay as very likely an output.
30 would be the constant +12V, like always. 56 is the headlight switched +12V.
Then F could be the high beam +12V as in this other diagram you found.
I'm still a bit uncertain about the S line, but I could probe it and see when it does what it does, to get an idea if I'm right about its operation.
If nothing else, even if I don't find the exact diagram, I should be able to create my own design based on what I know needs to happen, then use the push button assembly to test the operation.
That said, while I understand the principles involved in a relay, I'll still beat my head against it awhile before actually trying anything, so I'm glad to take any more information somebody may have to offer! _________________ 1964 Type 3 Notchback
1969 Karmann Ghia shell in need of full body off restoration
2004 WRX
"It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It" - Upton Sinclair |
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andybla Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2014 Posts: 630 Location: BE
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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vdubjiunkie wrote: |
Ok, I think this may be going somewhere in my brain.
The J is a brown wire in my T3 diagram, so that should be a ground. Maybe I don't necessarily need to know specifically ground for what, just that it is a ground from the relay as very likely an output.
30 would be the constant +12V, like always. 56 is the headlight switched +12V.
Then F could be the high beam +12V as in this other diagram you found.
I'm still a bit uncertain about the S line, but I could probe it and see when it does what it does, to get an idea if I'm right about its operation.
If nothing else, even if I don't find the exact diagram, I should be able to create my own design based on what I know needs to happen, then use the push button assembly to test the operation.
That said, while I understand the principles involved in a relay, I'll still beat my head against it awhile before actually trying anything, so I'm glad to take any more information somebody may have to offer! |
as stated just above the schem, found that on the forum ===>
56 is the power in from the headlight switch, 56a is the high beam, F is the low beam, and S is the trigger from the switch in the turn signal arm.
As for the J it is the - on the drawing with nc/no contacts, ground is ground, is always mutual for every electric component |
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mdege Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2018 Posts: 936 Location: Niederkruechten, Germany
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vdubjiunkie Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017 Posts: 99 Location: Northwest Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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mdege wrote: |
This is a special relay. It is wjat is called a bi-stable relay. This means the first pulse sets it to i.e. the high beams an the next pulse back to the low beams.
This means you can only replace it with a similar one. |
My experience is limited, but I do remember building a bi-stable circuit a while back, and I get this. Thanks! _________________ 1964 Type 3 Notchback
1969 Karmann Ghia shell in need of full body off restoration
2004 WRX
"It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It" - Upton Sinclair |
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vdubjiunkie Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017 Posts: 99 Location: Northwest Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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andybla wrote: |
As for the J it is the - on the drawing with nc/no contacts, ground is ground, is always mutual for every electric component |
Ok, forgive the ignorance, but this almost makes me wonder if that connection is largely unnecessary. I know a ground can be a trigger, but if it isn't in this case, I would simply be able to take the "J" from the push button assembly to common ground.
In that scenario, I could just use the 5 pin relay which does have the S and F connections. Does this seem reasonable to all? _________________ 1964 Type 3 Notchback
1969 Karmann Ghia shell in need of full body off restoration
2004 WRX
"It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It" - Upton Sinclair |
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andybla Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2014 Posts: 630 Location: BE
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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i do not know exactly, do you have picture from the pushbutton connections?
Make sure you have good ground either way (eg shortest route) |
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TheGrafs Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2012 Posts: 239 Location: Utica, New York
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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Good info my friend! _________________ 1957 Oval Semaphore Beetle
1964 Notchback S
1966 Fastback
1970 Squareback
Youtube: GrafsGarage3
Instagram: GrafsGarage |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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I converted my 64 from 6v to 12v and then to LED bulbs. The 6v relay was replaced by the 12v version for a couple of weeks until I also converted to LED lights.
This is the 12v version of the OG 6v relay:
I was able to confirm it wouldn't work with LED bulbs and then removed it (it has since been sold). I replaced it with an electronic relay with 5 pins and wired it up like so:
Everything works fine - high beam, low beam, flash to pass, etc. No issues.
The original relays (if you're not using LED lights) are easily found:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2081197
The 12V version is slightly harder to find but they're out there. |
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vdubjiunkie Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017 Posts: 99 Location: Northwest Arkansas
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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ataraxia wrote: |
I converted my 64 from 6v to 12v and then to LED bulbs. The 6v relay was replaced by the 12v version for a couple of weeks until I also converted to LED lights.
This is the 12v version of the OG 6v relay:
I was able to confirm it wouldn't work with LED bulbs and then removed it (it has since been sold). I replaced it with an electronic relay with 5 pins and wired it up like so:
Everything works fine - high beam, low beam, flash to pass, etc. No issues. |
Thanks for this great information. There is a part of me that has a hard time letting go of the fact that the only effective difference between the "standard headlight relay" and this 91/46-3 (either 6 or 12V) is that the one has an additional, and seemingly unnecessary constant +12V (30) and ground (J).
It makes me wonder if that J is a switched ground, which may cause one or more parts of the relay to not function if it is not switched. I will likely wind up mostly letting it go in the interest of moving forward.
It is cold out now, and I'm returning to my indoor projects. I do already have a "standard 12V headlight relay" in use on the car now, as well as what could be a functional spare.
I've also found this wonderful thread, which may be one I'll need to use on this adventure.
Last night I began testing continuity between connections on my assembly, and it was going well until one particular pair that did not have continuity.
Initially I thought I may just clean up the switch on the exterior, with the idea in mind that it's probably not all that "dirty" inside, and if it works, then just call it good. And that may still be my plan, but if it doesn't work, then I will be heading down this white knuckle path of push button disassembly! _________________ 1964 Type 3 Notchback
1969 Karmann Ghia shell in need of full body off restoration
2004 WRX
"It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It" - Upton Sinclair |
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vdubjiunkie Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017 Posts: 99 Location: Northwest Arkansas
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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I just remembered another thing I'm hoping somebody (maybe ataraxia) can help with on this. Since my car was outfitted with a later model push button replacement assembly, I never had the parking lights hooked up. In the diagram, there are two "P" wires from the steering column which attach to the top and bottom of the same fuse location.
My admittedly inadequate knowledge of wiring can't make sense of what this would accomplish, so leaves me wondering if this really is the way it is supposed to connect.
I would imagine the "P" is for parking lights, but beyond that, I don't really understand. Perhaps one of those wires connects +12V when the parking lights are engaged, which then passes through the fuse to the other parking light wire, and it really doesn't even matter which wire connects to which side, and that is how the parking lights get lit up.
I've also never fully understood the operation of the parking lights, in general, and specifically with this car. I think when you park on the street, you light up the side that is adjacent to passing cars, so they see you better and don't hit you, but do those lights illuminate on both sides when headlights are on too? _________________ 1964 Type 3 Notchback
1969 Karmann Ghia shell in need of full body off restoration
2004 WRX
"It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It" - Upton Sinclair |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13247 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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the parking light positive (grey wire?) is only powered with the ignition off (keys out) and you use the turn indicator lever. It lights up just the parking light. Yes you would leave it on all night long on narrow roadways, the single small bulb wasn't enough to drain the battery.
Pedro wires them as a turn signal on his cars, which makes more sense in this era |
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vdubjiunkie Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017 Posts: 99 Location: Northwest Arkansas
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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Erik G wrote: |
the parking light positive (grey wire?) is only powered with the ignition off (keys out) and you use the turn indicator lever. It lights up just the parking light. Yes you would leave it on all night long on narrow roadways, the single small bulb wasn't enough to drain the battery.
Pedro wires them as a turn signal on his cars, which makes more sense in this era |
Ok, cool. That pretty much confirms what I thought.
I’ve seen where people talk about using them as turn signals, and that may be what I wind up doing too. But, I’d love to put it as designed, at least initially.
Does anybody know about the question of the two “P” wires from the steering column to each end of the same fuse? I’m sure that must be done just like it looks in the diagram, but I’m not familiar enough with various circuit designs to see it and just instantly know that it makes sense. _________________ 1964 Type 3 Notchback
1969 Karmann Ghia shell in need of full body off restoration
2004 WRX
"It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It" - Upton Sinclair |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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If you want to use them as true parking lights - wire them just like the diagram. The fuse is to keep them from roasting the electrical should something go wrong - which is ironic since VW didn't bother to fuse the main circuit from the battery/starter back to the front dash.
I originally connected them as intended and realized the lights are best used as turn indicators so I changed them. Simple as using a Y connector and moving the wires to the turn indicators. |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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ataraxia wrote: |
I originally connected them as intended and realized the lights are best used as turn indicators so I changed them. Simple as using a Y connector and moving the wires to the turn indicators. |
Yup, that's what I did on my 65 Notch, and helped my son do that on his 65 Roadster. It's really easy to do, although on my son's car we used one of the late model 3 way wire plugs. He even went wit LED's to make the side lights brighter. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Qldelsie Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2019 Posts: 518 Location: Queensland Australia
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Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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Yes, I changed mine to be indicators too.
The old system of side lights on at night came (AFAIK) from the old English system whereby in the early days (50's / 60's etc) if you parked your car on a street at night, it was law that you had to leave the side lights that were on the outside of the car (ie next to the road) on. Thus the old system that lots of my early cars had in the UK of pushing the indicator up or down once the ignition was off to turn on just one side of the side lights dependent upon which side of the road you were parked.
In today's world, not only is this no longer required, but also most new cars have an indicator light somewhere on the side (on the body, or now often in the side mirror) for improved visibility. So my thought is if it helps some numpty from crashing in to me because they didn't see my turn signals, then it is a "good" improvement.
G |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 push button relay diagram |
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Qldelsie wrote: |
Yes, I changed mine to be indicators too.
In today's world, not only is this no longer required, but also most new cars have an indicator light somewhere on the side (on the body, or now often in the side mirror) for improved visibility. So my thought is if it helps some numpty from crashing in to me because they didn't see my turn signals, then it is a "good" improvement.
G |
Yup, that's what my reasoning was too when I did it. Well that, and filling the hole that was factory cut into the fender.
On my 64 T-34, I just put a flasher relay into the power circuit for the side lights to light up and flash. It was as simple as adding in a short piece of wire and the flasher relay. Everything else was already in place. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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