Modern fuel pressure regulator substitute?

[Tram]

[blues90]

[raygreenwood]

Sorry...meant to get back to this thread. Busy week.

Please bear in mind....in these responses I am not trying to be mean or beat on you Blues90 ...I am trying to get across to you that your methods of testing are bit sketchy....and with all due respect.....your understanding of how the D-jet system works is a bit incomplete.

Blues90 said:...in response to my last post.

[blues90]

Ray:

This is a late E system. I won't quote all you wrote it's there already.

First turning the type B MPS hollow hex does enrich the mix. Yet I didn't do that on a cold engine it was fully warmed up. I bought the fuel pump the end of 2017 and the FPR arrived less than a week ago.

The test results you offer are the old FPR and I just drove the car and that day I installed the pressure gauge and it did start after I primed the system to get the air out. Once I removed the screw that fits into the T to install the gauge no fuel ran out at all. So I primed it and started it to see what the running pressure was.

Once I replaced the FPR this week just 3 days ago and primed the system it would not even start at all. It was then even though the engine was cold I put vacuum again on the MPS to back the setting back to where it began it still would not start. I then connected the NOS MPS that was still mounted and it fired right up. The one I was adjusting was held on the same mounting with one bolt as a test.

Point is on a cold engine which is what it was the temp sensors should be near their highest reading and the engine would not start and all I can do is assume that something in the adjusted MPS was failing , it was old and held vacuum and the coils read proper so perhaps one of the 2 cells gave out. If either coil is bad the engine will not start. A bad MPS vacuum leak it might start and run real rich.

I know how the TPS works the zig zag as long as you are opening the throttle and the small switch is on it signals the ECU to enrich only when you are moving the switch then once you let off the idle contact on the small switch closes and the contacts land on the idle circuit. The full load is about 3/4 of the way past idle and again the small switch contacts move on for open throttle movement. The zig zag is 2 separate pins 10 clicks each on the TPS and a ground and the WOT and idle the small switch is like a fork and moves for on /off opening and closing throttle.

So I changed the FPR a few days ago , the adjusted MPS died , cold engine temps sensors at their high point resistance no start . Once I swapped MPS it fired right up and then did the same as before . started fine with TS1 connected then after 20 minutes the erratic miss sets in . Unplug TS1 smooths right out.

Once I did all that I checked the fuel pressure it was 31 PSI new FPR . Shut it down waited. On start up it read 31 psi then dropped to 29 after 3 hours 11 minutes it read 19 psi after 24 hours it was 2 psi the old FPR read 4 psi same amount of time. I then primed it again cold engine clamped off the pressure side before the gauge and the new FPR it held pressure for hours other than the 2 psi shut down drop . while waiting just to see I let off the clamp the pressure side did not drop at all ever though all my tests old and new FPR . As a last resort just to see I built up pressure with the primer switch and clamped the pressure side and return it dropped 2 psi and held for 6 hours so it seems the injectors and CSV do not leak. I then removed both clamps and checked for gas in the oil didn't smell any at all.

Once thing I did note , with the new FPR even though the pressure does drop in 24 hours it took seconds to get the air out before it took quite a lot of priming . Granted the engine was not hot at this time yet it was once I got it running with the new FPR and it primed real fast.

Also note TS1 unplugged adds richness and when I adjusted the old MPS I adjusted hot only to match how it ran with TS1 connected then it did run with TS1 with the adjustment I made on the old now dead MPS . But over time it began to change took from 2019 to a 5 days ago then it began surging under a load telling me the old MPS had an issue . It was old got it in 1986. It used to work great with TS1 in the loop.

According to rennlist on type 4 the type of MPS I have is said to enrich turn out CCW.

I did a search on samba on MPS and to be fair Ray older posts of yours on adjusting the MPS and hunting all point to a lean condition and the time it takes for the system to loose pressure varies widely. A rich condition is a vacuum leak. I don't care if I changed all the lines and hoses and gaskets and runner boots injector seals all of it even the ID back gasket at the end of 2019 which IS the last time and we talked about how to do it as well as how to fix the electric AAR . Well guess what after all of that not one thing changed on tiny bit and still I cannot find one single vacuum leak and trust me I tried this week. All that and I was right back to unplugging TS1 and only then did I even consider adjusting the old MPS I had as a test to see and it worked. It was lean.

Go back and read my resent posts and you will see what I tried and what did of didn't work . I don't see any of this in this post you just made. You even thought I got the FPR years ago when I even told you when I ordered it and when I got it. Forget about years ago I'm talking about what I did the end of 2019 to today. I have studied how the TVS works and MPS and temp sensors and trigger points all of it . I even set a working spare TVS on a spare IAD and watched with a meter connected to see just how it works and how to set it proper I do get it. I know how the temps sensors work and what they should read. How they affect the mix as well as the AAR and most of these are really in play on a cold start. I have read their cold temps and hot temps to see just where they start and end so I know if one is an issue. Sure if you get the engine hot they will raise or drop depending and cause issues yet they do read in range. By the time you have pulled over and shut it down and opened the lid both temp sensors have changed so you need to keep at it until you find a pattern yet it's close yet not close enough to what they are really reading.

Just about everything one needs to know is in the Bentley other than some info they had wrong yet it you read how each system works and go through the testing with a DVOM and vacuum gauge and pressure gauge and timing light you can find the problem. Yet with old parts and many NLA it becomes a different deal.

I could certainly live without the BOLD % of how wrong you feel I am while beginning the entire reply by saying you are not being pointy or beating one me.

What I'm reading based on your tests is even when my 73 was 12 years old when I bought it , without these tests my car would never run right. Guess what. I pulled the tin in the car , cleaned the engine , drained the oil and flushed the case because the oil screen was clogged. I did start it to get it into one of my 4 stalls at work and it ran so so. Then I replaced all the lines and every seal and gasket and hose on the engine , valve adjust so on. Before I did that I did notice when running just to get an idea I had a volt meter connected just to see how the charging system worked because I found plenty of red battery + post protectors under the rear seat. I replaced the battery Neg cable because it was green and barely there. While running it noticed it would drop rpm and begin to smoke then I looked the voltage reg and it was all rust , removed it took the cover off and inside was all rust . can't imagine how it ever worked . Replaced it the rpm and black smoke stopped.

Point is once I did the engine and VR new battery got it all back together it purred. I didn't have any books yet and a family owned VW place near where I worked who did only air cooled VW's knew exactly what seals and hoses and gaskets I needed so I did the work and it ran perfect for 8 years with oil changes and points and plugs , valve adjustments just normal stuff. I also bought the Bentley and Haynes he had on his book rack . Now I knew how to check fuel pressure at least know what it should be.

In your opinion 10 years old check everything or it will never run right. There was no Samba or internet in 1985 only a few places one could get parts. In your mind 3 years is a long time . I just replaced fuel lines every year or 2 and did the basic stuff to maintain any car. I then have to say I must have been lucky. I had no idea how many miles this 73 had all I knew is it sat for at lease a few years and had a few VW repair receipts a few years old in the trunk and ended up on the used car lot at the small ford dealership I worked at and I paid $650 for it. And I was able to get it running great. Once it was a removed the fenders and interior and everything in the dash fixed the clogged fresh air box that caused the flooding that killed the VR. Got a new rear apron had the body shop weld it in after I removed the smashed in one then painted the car myself. It looked new after. No rust at all other than surface rust that sanded right off.

I needed wiper arms and a rear bumper and U-haul across the street had a 72 auto trans I asked and the owner gave it to me so I had spare parts.

[blues90]

Still had 6 psi on the gauge after 24 hours. So I removed the gauge and put the screw and aluminum washer back in the test T left side. All I need to do was because I have one , used the pump prime switch too 10 seconds to not hear any air bubbles to the tank, turned the key fired right up. For what it's worth before I had to hold the prime switch for at least well over a few minutes cycle the key 2 to 3 times and pump the pedal 2 times key on and many times it would just stall the turn the key again then it would start, even when it did start half the time it would quit.

I also kept checking the gauge T engine running to make certain the old aluminum washer sealed , it did yet just in case I made a new aluminum sealing washer . Also that T on mine a 73 does have a barb it's not just a straight fitting. enough of a barb a bit less than the one on a fuel injector , it's as long just not as large in diameter at the largest end. It's enough that it takes some effort to remove the hose with the clamp loose.

Now that the engine is fairly hot I will see how it starts on the 5th then drive it. It does run smooth has no hunt or erratic miss and smooth transition from idle to 3000 RPM. No fuel in the oil.

It's better than it was. Yes I have been priming it quite a bit to see what leaks down and how long yet it did start with little priming even though the pressure was at 6 psi. I also noted when it started feeling the left injector rail it was cold it was only after shut down it felt warm not hot warm. The engine was hot enough I could not keep my hand on the oil cooler long , not that the temp would burn my hand it was just uncomfortable.

I did verify the Delphi 2 port pump check valve is holding in my tests and the fact that after 24 hours the pressure was 6 psi instead of 2 psi with the new FPR also Delphi may need to be worked a bit more before it seats better.

[raygreenwood]

Blues90 said:

[blues90]

Ray :

Here is what you are missing. Also forget about any posts I made long ago just focus on the end of 2019 and now please.

I never even adjusted the MPS when the engine was anything but fully warmed up , fully .

The fuel pressure was 30 psi running on the old FPR and 31 on the new FPR running. Specs state 28 to 31 PSI so the old FPR was 30 the new 31.

The engine was cold sat over night when I replaced the FPR. I had the gauge connected and very little fuel ran out when I removed the T's screw because it sat 24 hours and I knew it would be 0 pressure because of all the priming I had to do and if there was any pressure I was ready to deal with it. Now with the adjusted MPS it did run the day before I replaced the FPR but even with the old one it all of a sudden it did not want to pull steady it bogged down.

Once I replaced the FPR had the gauge still on I could not get the engine to start , I had the adjusted MPS marked where it was before I adjusted it .

I set it back to where it was and the engine would still not start . I know every mark I made there is the start point and and a series of 1/16 index marks all the way around so I had reference . Remember the engine was cold so the two temp sensors should and did read what they should based on the air temp in F I even checked with a temp sensor I have in a DVOM that reads everything with a probe touching each sensor.

There was nothing plugged at the MPS hex hole it did hold vacuum yet I didn't leave the vacuum pump on long enough to know if it held vacuum long enough.

Now all I did was connect the NOS MPS of the exact same type that was still mounted and the engine fired right up. Both MPS used to act the same way had to unplug TS1 to get it to idle smooth and TS1 reads proper at temps as does TS2. I did adjust the adjusted MPS back to where it was and even so the engine would not start and very well may have not with the old FPR. As I said it was acting up.

All I know is something is wrong with the old MPS and I have not looked into it and at this point don't care , I need my car to run since it is all I have to drive.

I know both cells are connected together and the hollow hex screw is the way this MPS senses yet how it failed I don't know . I only know no matter what I tried the old MPS would not allow the engine to start the NOS did and right away and it still does. I tried leaner back to the starting point /leaner still and back richer to where I last had it and even more rich the engine refused to start.

The fuel pump does not leak down at all I checked this. My main point is even with 6 PSI on the system this morning I removed the gauge some fuel leaked out and put the T fitting screw and washer back in primed the system to see if the T screw leaked I didn't need a fire. Now I felt I had no system pressure since it was down to 6 psi before I removed the gauge. The 6 psi leaked down when I removed the gauge. I used the prime switch hear air bubbles into the tank cold engine took 10 to 15 seconds for them to stop just turned the key once it fired right up and never stalled . I did not need to prime it for over a minute and cycle the key 2 to 3 times and pump the pedal 2 to 3 times key on to get it started and half the time it would run a few minutes and quit nor did I need to feather the throttle to keep it running which some times that worked other times it still quit.

As long as it starts this way again after I ran it till hot today I'll then find out why the pressure drops down. I dropped the first time to 2 psi in 24 hr's this time it was 6 psi in 23 hr's.

I find no evidence the new FPR had anything to do with the engine not starting with the adjusted MPS or why it starts with the NOS MPS. The fact is before I adjusted the old MPS both worked exactly the same for a long time ran crappy with TS1 in and fine with TS1 out. This is no longer the case.

I've spent 4 days working on this car 3 to 5 hours a day testing and checking everything. If it is not the pump check valve leaking down which I tested and it is not then the new FPR is the fault. Maybe since it spent time bouncing around USPS in a box it needs time to settle , maybe because the PSI did raise 4psi in 24 hours who knows all I know is it's not the pump or the injectors or the CSV or any fuel lines I checked every single one under pressure. I did clamp the pressure side before the gauge and the FPR inlet and it held fine never dropped so it's not the injectors of CSV plus there is not gas in the oil. I also checked every single connector on the entire engine found nothing.

Yes my pressure gauge is an air pressure gauge that has an adjustment to zero it out if you remove the face with 2 screws and it was on zero . It's old not fluid filled yet it has been consistence and compared to other air pressure gauges I had it reads dead on the same. Last time I used another gauge on the CSV valve hose and set the pressure to 30 psi this one read 30 psi. Once funds permit I'll get a better liquid damped 0 to 60 psi like you have only with the NPT fitting.

William

[blues90]

I shut it down hot yesterday the 4th. got in today 24 hours later. I primed it for maybe 15 seconds turned the key it started right up never quit running. Then I drove it and it ran fine and smooth oil temp was near 180 F . Got some gas fired right up. I'm sure the engine temps are higher after a drive so I'll see how it starts in the morning.

I didn't have the gauge connected so I don't know how much pressure was in the system but it did start with much less effort than it has in years. Much less priming time and no need to cycle the key a few times and pump the pedal 2 to 3 times key on. All I do now is a short prime and it starts and keeps running.

[KTPhil]

Is this a Square? You can hook a short hose and see FP in your mirror as you drive.

[tmitoraj]

Quote: This is WHY....both pressure and volume as well as leak down tests are required.

Would someone spell out exactly how these tests are done? Where to place a clamp and what to expect. Thanks Tom

[blues90]

No point in connecting a pressure gauge until I get a better one . I know the pressure is 31 PSI well above idle. the old FPR it read 30 psi. One I get a better gauge I'll see how close it really is. But last time I checked it with an air pressure gauge 0 to 60 PSI it read 30 PSI this gauge is 0 to 80 psi

Since I drive it till hot 24 hours ago I got in and started it today and all I needed was a 10 second prime with the prime switch and turn the key and it started right up. So the new FPR must have changed something.

I used regular fuel clamps of the pump to tank lines< I have enough of the proper type to replace those . I did all the engine to the back end of the tunnel fuel lines. Plus replace the all the fuel hoses tank to pump to front rail with the gates barricade FI hose which i used on the engine. Not sure if the Barricade will fit over the 2 port Delphi pump because that was designed to use quick connects, don't know if the gates fi 5/16" hose will fit over the pumps disconnect barb , it's larger that all the other factory barbs and it's not tapered barb. I figure I could use 2 90 degree Dorman metal or nylon fittings that would make for a cleaner install.

[KTPhil]

[blues90]

[KTPhil]

GoPro is a very small video camera. They are pricey, but for diagnosis a cheaper version would suffice. Heck, you could duct tape your phone there and quickly drive up to speed, and check that video.

[blues90]

I got these
https://www.dormanproducts.com/p-101552-800-783.aspx?origin=keyword#mz-expanded-view-1019937110909

So I would not need to try to force the gates barricade FI hose over the pump quick disconnect rings and so the hose routing would be easier. It was difficult enough to get any 5/16" ID hose over those. The gates hose was even difficult to get on the metal pipes the feed the injectors , they have large barb ends. Need to wait until the tank is near empty when I take the tank lines off. Wish I had a gas can at least a 5 gallon . Any fuel in the tank runs out when the lines are removed. Usually I clamp both tank lines , have all the other hoses done , the 2 to the tank cut to length then pull one at a time and get the new hose on.

So far it does not take more than 10 seconds to prime the system and it starts right up.

[blues90]

You should take a look back on ALL of your threads. I have been REPEATEDLY ASKING you to do specific tests.....COMPLETE tests. You never do them.

Its always....."I already checked that"....then we find out it was YEARS ago. Or using a test method that is incomplete.

I have been working on D-jet systems since 1978 when I got my first daily driver with D-jet (a 411). I have worked on many hundreds of D-jet engines across a spectrum of vehicles.

In 1991 I got my technician certifications on D, L and K (and digifant technically) at a Bosch technical clinic in Atlanta. It was amazing to find out that the instructors knew less than I did about actually tuning the system....because outside of setting it up to factory specs with new parts....there was no REAL tuning information in print.

At that point in time it was STILL considered outside of the scope of the private owner because of the tools you would likely not have.

And I have learned much much more about the tuning and tunability of the system....along with the wiring issues....since 1991.....all of this spanning about 1 million miles across a range of vehicles tuning and driving.

I could probably sort out your issues in about an hour. ......IF I WERE THERE....but I'm not.

So if you want help from people looking at you across the internet....DO WHAT THEY ASK YOU TO....the WAY they ask you to.

If you do not trust me...which is obvious....then do it yourself.

Just keep in mind that you have been twiddling with it for years now...never exactly doing what is asked.

My sincere apologies if I offended you or hurt your feelings.....that was not my intent.

But you are just not getting a lot of this. I spent 2.5 hours on that reply last night just trying to get some of this to sink in in areas where you have made incorrect assumptions.

I started this reply at about 1:10 Central....and its 3:48 central.

Sorry. I can't help you. Its been dragging for years and I do not have the time to keep repeating myself.

Ray



Sure Ray . You keep telling yourself that you know everything and I haven't a clue . Most of all I never asked for your help or time let alone you insults and bold print . You jump in with I don't mean to beat up on you then instead attempt to insult me. All just to clear your conscience from being down right rude, if you even realize it.

[raygreenwood]

Blues90 said:

[blues90]

[raygreenwood]

All I can say is my apologies if you think I or anyone is down on you. I'm not. Sorry if I
offended you or embarrassed you. That was never my point.

However.....I still maintain that you also need to step up a bit. When someone....anyone....not just me.....spends a lot of time putting information together for you to solve a problem....with clear concise directions for testing and implementation....you might try the instructions out.....completely.

Because....without complete testing....there is no way to really troubleshoot your issues. What's really wrong....could be caused by any of the steps you skipped over.

Just sayin! Ray

[blues90]

I have no doubt anyone reading this, if they have hours to kill , looks at this and see's some sort of twisted sorry soap opera.

When I brought up the issues I was dealing with and posted . I was not going to post anymore comments on this subject simply because I could clearly see where it was going. Yet I did .

I cannot recall any other topics that have jumped the rails and became personal as this one has.

I offer no excuses . I only came to this forum to find answers and possibly help anyone who may have a type 3 issue I have run across, that's all.