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Snoww_
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 73
Location: California
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 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:55 pm Post subject: What's Up With My Beam? |
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I've got a '61 baja that was built in the late 80s or early 90s I believe. We've rebuilt the engine, trans, electrical, etc. Now we're on to suspension, and that's where things get weird.
It's got a ball joint front end that appears to have been cut and turned, but only the lower tube. I haven't seen any info about that, everything I've read here on the Samba or YouTube has been turning both tubes. Was this a hack job? Someone ran out of time? Give some advantages?
Basically I've got everything apart while I'm working on replacing the ball joints so I'm trying to decide if I want to cut / turn the top tube on the beam and/or weld hook and rods to it.
Thanks
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1991 Tiico Vanagon Carat
1961 Baja Bug |
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QRP
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008
Posts: 1712
Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| Well considering a 61 came stock with a link pin front end, I would call it a hack job until proven otherwise. |
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Snoww_
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 73
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:39 am Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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Good point, it’s registered as a 61 but it’s got a 69 pan. It’s got a ball joint front end and IRS rear suspension. It’s all over the place.
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1991 Tiico Vanagon Carat
1961 Baja Bug |
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Q-Dog
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 8700
Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:26 am Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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Nothing wrong with turning only one tube if you don't need much lift and you don't overdo it. If the car is lighter than stock up front, turning one tube can soften the ride. The main problem is the travel limit of the ball joints.
I guess the most important question is, "how does it ride?"
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Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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Snoww_
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 73
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:04 am Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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Overall it rides pretty well. I aired down on the trails and that helped a lot, 20psi vs 30psi feels very different. It's mostly on the street and logging roads. No jumps or sand so I'm not overly concerned with travel, I just don't want to have to do work twice. It's definitely lighter than stock with the fiberglass front end, fenders, hood, no spare up front, etc.
Since I've already got things apart to fix the 4 blown ball joints (it was wandering at highway speeds) I wanted to see if there was anything else I could do to improve it. I also read about caster shims that can be installed to help highway driving, not sure on thoughts on those if they're recommended or not.
In general how does the cut/turn work? Turning a specific degree equals a specific amount of lift? So turning one tube more equals turning both tubes less? Since I didn't do the cut/turn I'm still confused on the specifics.
Thanks.
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1991 Tiico Vanagon Carat
1961 Baja Bug |
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QRP
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008
Posts: 1712
Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| Snoww_ wrote: |
| Good point, it’s registered as a 61 but it’s got a 69 pan. It’s got a ball joint front end and IRS rear suspension. It’s all over the place. |
If the pan is 69 and the vin is stamped on the pan it should be registered as a 69 ????
At least thats my experience in Ca.
Did you check the vin number really good ??
Was the 61 vin welded into the 69 pan ?? |
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Snoww_
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 73
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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To be honest, I don't really know. I'll take a look when I get home and check the VIN.
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1991 Tiico Vanagon Carat
1961 Baja Bug |
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RLFD213
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| Sorry if I’m confused but is that mud on the top of the lower tube or is that rusted out? From the photo it looks like the top of the lower tube is rusted out. |
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Snoww_
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 73
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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Looks like the registration VIN doesn’t exactly match the VIN in the car  registration says 61, pan says 69
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1991 Tiico Vanagon Carat
1961 Baja Bug |
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Snoww_
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 73
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| RLFD213 wrote: |
| Sorry if I’m confused but is that mud on the top of the lower tube or is that rusted out? From the photo it looks like the top of the lower tube is rusted out. |
Top of the lower tube is covered in mud and the paint that was once on there is flaking with surface rust but nothing structural. Cleaning that up will be in my list, good eye, thanks.
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1991 Tiico Vanagon Carat
1961 Baja Bug |
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QRP
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008
Posts: 1712
Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| Snoww_ wrote: |
| Looks like the registration VIN doesn’t exactly match the VIN in the car registration says 61, pan says 69 |
That's a big problem.
You might wanna straighten that out before any more time and money is dumped into it. |
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72BajaBen
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2006
Posts: 888
Location: Tampa Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| QRP wrote: |
| Snoww_ wrote: |
| Looks like the registration VIN doesn’t exactly match the VIN in the car registration says 61, pan says 69 |
That's a big problem.
You might wanna straighten that out before any more time and money is dumped into it. |
As long as the VIN tag in the windshield is good no ones going to look at the pan. If you dont have a VIN tag in the windshield...make one...Shouldnt be that big of a deal.
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Semper Fidelis
Build thread - https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9762332 |
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QRP
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008
Posts: 1712
Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| 72BajaBen wrote: |
| QRP wrote: |
| Snoww_ wrote: |
| Looks like the registration VIN doesn’t exactly match the VIN in the car registration says 61, pan says 69 |
That's a big problem.
You might wanna straighten that out before any more time and money is dumped into it. |
As long as the VIN tag in the windshield is good no ones going to look at the pan. If you dont have a VIN tag in the windshield...make one...Shouldnt be that big of a deal. |
You might get away with that in Florida but I've heard horror stories from people about park rangers checking pan numbers, one guy told me they made him remove the fuel cell in back to check the pan numbers. |
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72BajaBen
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2006
Posts: 888
Location: Tampa Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| QRP wrote: |
| 72BajaBen wrote: |
| QRP wrote: |
| Snoww_ wrote: |
| Looks like the registration VIN doesn’t exactly match the VIN in the car registration says 61, pan says 69 |
That's a big problem.
You might wanna straighten that out before any more time and money is dumped into it. |
As long as the VIN tag in the windshield is good no ones going to look at the pan. If you dont have a VIN tag in the windshield...make one...Shouldnt be that big of a deal. |
You might get away with that in Florida but I've heard horror stories from people of park rangers checking pan numbers, one guy told me they made him remove the fuel cell in back to check the pan numbers. |
Yea I’ve never known of that actually happening..pretty much anywhere. Everyone’s heard stories. I also heard that people put razor blades in Halloween candy. LOL
I would also find it hard to believe that they have the authority to make you take your car apart. I would tell them to give me the ticket and then go fuck off.
The other thing is they would need a warrant to search my car for a VIN. Just don’t give them permission. They aren’t god out there. You have rights.
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Snoww_
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 73
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:16 am Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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I'm not too concerned about the VIN situation at the moment. I don't have a dash tag but I might make one that matches the reg. I've had the bug 12 years and don't plan on selling it so it doesn't make too much difference to me at the moment.
As for the beam I've decided to leave the cut and turn the way it is. It rode well enough with blown ball joints I can only imagine it'll get better when they're replaced. I did order a set of caster shims that I'll throw on while everything's apart to help with highway driving.
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1991 Tiico Vanagon Carat
1961 Baja Bug |
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72BajaBen
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2006
Posts: 888
Location: Tampa Florida
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1432
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:58 am Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| RLFD213 wrote: |
| Sorry if I’m confused but is that mud on the top of the lower tube or is that rusted out? From the photo it looks like the top of the lower tube is rusted out. |
Greetings from The Rust Belt where beams rust out!
Not like that, though.
I heard a similar comment from my cousin from California. I had a super solid '65 from Texas with a little surface rust where the paint wore off the channels.
Cuz said,
"That thing is a rusty POS!"
Typical Northeast beam rust starts at the bottom of the shock towers. The salt doesn't get at the middle of the tubes. The tubes don't seem to rust at all. I've seen beams with mostly gonzo towers. That's why they make weld- in kits to repair the towers.
The frame head rusted away on my girlfriend's '64 mid- 1990s. We never saw that before. Typically the backbone stays intact even in 1950s cars that have rotted in the woods for decades.
In other words Girlfriend's frame had was no longer connected to the frame. Made for a vicious speed wobble.
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Snoww_
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 73
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:44 am Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| Dusty1 wrote: |
| RLFD213 wrote: |
| Sorry if I’m confused but is that mud on the top of the lower tube or is that rusted out? From the photo it looks like the top of the lower tube is rusted out. |
Greetings from The Rust Belt where beams rust out!
Not like that, though.
I heard a similar comment from my cousin from California. I had a super solid '65 from Texas with a little surface rust where the paint wore off the channels.
Cuz said,
"That thing is a rusty POS!"
Typical Northeast beam rust starts at the bottom of the shock towers. The salt doesn't get at the middle of the tubes. The tubes don't seem to rust at all. I've seen beams with mostly gonzo towers. That's why they make weld- in kits to repair the towers.
The frame head rusted away on my girlfriend's '64 mid- 1990s. We never saw that before. Typically the backbone stays intact even in 1950s cars that have rotted in the woods for decades.
In other words Girlfriend's frame had was no longer connected to the frame. Made for a vicious speed wobble.
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Good to know what I have isn't too bad. A little wire wheel action and some new paint and it'll be better than ever.
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1991 Tiico Vanagon Carat
1961 Baja Bug |
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1432
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| QRP wrote: |
| You might get away with that in Florida but I've heard horror stories from people about park rangers checking pan numbers, one guy told me they made him remove the fuel cell in back to check the pan numbers. |
I know they're just doin' their job but I have a long history of messing with rangers.
When I was a kid they took our farm by eminent domain for a project that was ultimately cancelled. Rangers used to hassle us for riding around on our land. As far as I'm concerned it's still our land.
| 72BajaBen wrote: |
| The other thing is they would need a warrant to search my car for a VIN. Just don’t give them permission. They aren’t god out there. You have rights. |
Re: Rangers, Game Wardens et al:
Not intended to be political discussion so let's not discuss it. I'll just say it's a delicate balance and a delicate issue, balancing public use and not having perfectly good open land stomped into desert by the thronging throngs.
Our land has gone back to the deer and the rabbits. It's taken decades but I'm o.k. with that...
Don't mess with my VW, though! 
On that note...
There are a few states that are really good at providing paperwork for vehicles that are an endless hassle, elsewhere.
Maine doesn't require titles on vehicles over 15 years old. You can get Maine plates with a bill of sale. You don't need to be a Maine resident to purchase Maine tags.
Truckers take advantage of Maine's permanent trailer plates. That's why you see a lot of Maine plates out on the highway.
I understand Arizona has a similar deal for Arizona based U- Haul and anyone else who doesn't look forwards to annual visits to the DMV.
Vermont used to be a PITA requiring LE VIN verification and title on vehicles newer than 1971. They eventually figured out that titles sunsetted after 15 years in Maine and New Hampshire. Vermont now offers a super cheap temporary transport plate online. Need to move a body I mean a vehicle? Vermont will hook you up for thin money. 
I'd heartily endorse New Hampshire's plates sporting the "Live Free or Die" slogan except New Hampshire is very strict about verifying residency.
Maine will sell Maine tags to anyone. I hope they never end that policy.
Tennessee has a temporary transport plate deal for vehicles lacking "adequate" documentation. I guess their expectation is the vehicle will be someone else's problem once you move it out of Tennessee.
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DHale_510
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 378
Location: Nampa Idaho
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: What's Up With My Beam? |
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| Snoww_ wrote: |
I'm not too concerned about the VIN situation at the moment. I don't have a dash tag but I might make one that matches the reg. I've had the bug 12 years and don't plan on selling it so it doesn't make too much difference to me at the moment.]
A 1961 does not have a dash tag. It may still have a tag under the spare in the front well, and that may have the SN. One of mine has the tag without the SN, but it does code the original color. I have had them both ways. I think the dash tags came along in 1968. My '57/58 odd hybrid [oval window but registered as a '58] has the SN stamped into that front panel more or less where the aluminum tag later appeared.
Lots of stories hidden in a 70 year old car...
[As for the beam I've decided to leave the cut and turn the way it is. It rode well enough with blown ball joints I can only imagine it'll get better when they're replaced. I did order a set of caster shims that I'll throw on while everything's apart to help with highway driving. |
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You maybe confusing spring rate with preload. Twisting the beam is changing the preload, the spring rate does not change. Preload changes the ride height for a loaded car.
A stock Bug has about 480# on the front axle and about 7" of travel. With about equal travel up and down and 75#/" spring rate you are right at zero up travel without preload. This would be very harsh since the suspension will "bottom out" over any bump until something breaks, so the factory dials in about 3" of preload, which is about 1/2 of rotation.
With your lightened front end the problem bets a bit bigger. Or maybe for your use there is no problem at all.
Worn ball joints will usually be loose and wobbly making for directional problems, but sometimes the get tight and make for stiff, weird steering. Either way new ones are good. Keep the new ones well greased and they last a long time. I would worry about tie rod ends too, they are likely the same age and behave badly too.
The caster shims add inline stability which helps a lot in the highway, they also correct the caster for larger rear tires common on Baja bugs.
Dennis |
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