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onehappykombi
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2017
Posts: 150
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 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| dpalinsk wrote: |
| I’ve just recently became aware of oil analysis service providers, such as Blackstone, that claim they can judge the health of an engine or transmission by analyzing the unit’s oil. I read prolly 25+ pages of this thread as well as other discussions, I didn’t come across any posts showing results of transaxle gear oil analysis for either GL-4 or GL-5 over time. |
I did exactly the experiment you’re describing with Blackstone and will be sharing the results in my YouTube channel
I can post them here too
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'56 Early Split & '69 Early Bay
Overlanding the USA
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50331
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| dpalinsk wrote: |
I’ve decided to run Amsoil Syntheitc 75W-90 in my tranny, but I’m going to have samples from the two transaxles I have, the original tranny and a rebuilt one with maybe 2000 miles on it, analyzed for two purposes. One, the original tranny only has 75,000 miles on it and I suspect it’s never been changed and it could be good baseline data to have for this transaxle. I thought there was a problem with third gear 15 years ago, but I was wrong. I bought a rebuilt tranny in 2007 from CB Performance for $400, but it only has maybe 2000 miles on it as of today. It works fine, but I have no idea really about the quality of that rebuild. I’m curious as to the story an oil analysis could tell me about this transaxle. Prolly not much, but why not .
I guess what I’m wondering, is why isn’t there more gear oil analysis data regarding this epic debate? Have I just not found it or is it not relevant for some reason? |
What would be the purpose of comparing a transmission with oil produced 50 years ago with another with oil produced recently? Fifty years ago, almost every engine I tore into had serious taper to the cylinders, while starting 30 years ago they often had almost none. For motor oil I would rather have the cheapest house brand Walmart or Oreilleys offers today over the best oil available 50 years ago. |
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dpalinsk
Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2007
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| dpalinsk wrote: |
I’ve decided to run Amsoil Syntheitc 75W-90 in my tranny, but I’m going to have samples from the two transaxles I have, the original tranny and a rebuilt one with maybe 2000 miles on it, analyzed for two purposes. One, the original tranny only has 75,000 miles on it and I suspect it’s never been changed and it could be good baseline data to have for this transaxle. I thought there was a problem with third gear 15 years ago, but I was wrong. I bought a rebuilt tranny in 2007 from CB Performance for $400, but it only has maybe 2000 miles on it as of today. It works fine, but I have no idea really about the quality of that rebuild. I’m curious as to the story an oil analysis could tell me about this transaxle. Prolly not much, but why not .
I guess what I’m wondering, is why isn’t there more gear oil analysis data regarding this epic debate? Have I just not found it or is it not relevant for some reason? |
What would be the purpose of comparing a transmission with oil produced 50 years ago with another with oil produced recently? Fifty years ago, almost every engine I tore into had serious taper to the cylinders, while starting 30 years ago they often had almost none. For motor oil I would rather have the cheapest house brand Walmart or Oreilleys offers today over the best oil available 50 years ago. |
I don't disagree with your point about comparing 50 year old oil to modern oil. As it turns out, the oil wasn't the original and in fact, Blackstone stated that oil can stay in use! (I probably changed it back somewhere around 2004-2006 when I change out the tranny mounts. I don't remember doing so nor what gear oil I used. I'm sure I bought whatever Dave at Bart's Parts recommended back then!)
I was happy Blackstone's analysis indicates there wasn't an unusual amount of any metals in the oil, which was my primary reason for getting the oil tested. This transaxle will be put back in the car in a few months and I plan on testing the oil periodically for no other reasons than sharing data. |
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dpalinsk
Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2007
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| dpalinsk wrote: |
I’ve just recently became aware of oil analysis service providers, such as Blackstone, that claim they can judge the health of an engine or transmission by analyzing the unit’s oil. I read prolly 25+ pages of this thread as well as other discussions, I didn’t come across any posts showing results of transaxle gear oil analysis for either GL-4 or GL-5 over time. As I understand these tests, any significant or abnormal wear that would result in higher levels of various metal into the oil would be detected in the analysis of the oil. I’m surprised by the lack of this data in this thread as possibly a way of quantifying, in a more unbiased manner, the pros and cons of GL-4 vs. GL-5.
I’ve decided to run Amsoil Syntheitc 75W-90 in my tranny, but I’m going to have samples from the two transaxles I have, the original tranny and a rebuilt one with maybe 2000 miles on it, analyzed for two purposes. One, the original tranny only has 75,000 miles on it and I suspect it’s never been changed and it could be good baseline data to have for this transaxle. I thought there was a problem with third gear 15 years ago, but I was wrong. I bought a rebuilt tranny in 2007 from CB Performance for $400, but it only has maybe 2000 miles on it as of today. It works fine, but I have no idea really about the quality of that rebuild. I’m curious as to the story an oil analysis could tell me about this transaxle. Prolly not much, but why not .
I guess what I’m wondering, is why isn’t there more gear oil analysis data regarding this epic debate? Have I just not found it or is it not relevant for some reason? |
Here's the Blackstone gear oil analysis for the original transaxle from my 1974 Super Beetle. The oil was not the original oil and probably only 2000-3000 miles on it at most.
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dpalinsk
Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2007
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| onehappykombi wrote: |
| dpalinsk wrote: |
| I’ve just recently became aware of oil analysis service providers, such as Blackstone, that claim they can judge the health of an engine or transmission by analyzing the unit’s oil. I read prolly 25+ pages of this thread as well as other discussions, I didn’t come across any posts showing results of transaxle gear oil analysis for either GL-4 or GL-5 over time. |
I did exactly the experiment you’re describing with Blackstone and will be sharing the results in my YouTube channel
I can post them here too |
Great! I just uploaded the Blackstone report for my original tranny and I look forward to seeing your results! |
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clhiller
Samba Member
Joined: July 05, 2021
Posts: 12
Location: Alberta
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 9:13 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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+1 for Redline 75W90NS.
Covers all the bases, GL5 for hypoid gears and less slipperiness/corrosion for the synchros. I changed mine as I had no idea when it was last done. The tranny was shifting alright before, but seems smoother and quieter now. Maybe just the placebo effect though!
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indianpeaksjoe
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2017
Posts: 323
Location: Moab, UT
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Just posting this in case it helps someone else out. I ordered the oil transfer hand pump that is recommended on page one of this thread, but impatience got the better of me. I used the capri sun / squeeze quart bags of valvoline and it was easy peasy.
-Joe
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Adventures in owning a 66 beetle |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15297
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Those Valvoline squeeze bags have been out a couple years now. Yes they are a breeze to fill a VW transaxle in the car.
A PRO TIP. keep the spout caps. They will fit on oil bottles, ATF, and other fluids and are very helpful adding stuff without a funnel or spilling.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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DaddyGrasshopper
Samba Member
Joined: August 02, 2021
Posts: 5
Location: Pacific Wonderland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2024 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| Valvoline put that "disclaimer" on the label because jackasses will not let the myth die that it destroys yellow metals. Their "Special" manual trans gear oil is about $5 higher and very difficult to find. I've used Valvoline gear oil in my street cars and my drag race VW for 40 years. |
Well here I am to take the bait.
Does anyone have support for this claim? I'm about to put this stuff in my car, and I probably still will. But this note on the label caught my eye.
After reading through many pages of this, it seems that GL-5 rated gear oil will work just fine, and that any negative impacts are negligible at worst. I also assume that modern gear oils are well fortified with corrosion inhibitors to negate the issues people are concerned with. But over and over again the "pics or it didn't happen" and ad hominem attacks are really unproductive and don't seem to actually help guide to any real conclusions.
So far as I can tell, not all GL-5 is equal- I think we can all agree on that. It's clear there IS indeed a difference and consideration between GL-4 and GL-5 formulations. Manufacturers acknowledge it. But for some reason when the question of application is raised with them and the response is shared here it's disputed with "Well their representative is ignorant"... again, a response that does nothing to actually refute.
I'm generally willing to trust "real world" experiences and advice. Like I said, I'm about to pour VV831 into my own car because I have a ton of it and I don't think it will do any real harm. But it's ridiculous for a bunch of folks on the internet to suggest complete dismissal of remarks by manufacturers over the suggestion that it's there to dodge liability or that their own representatives are wrong. They engineer these oils and want to to sell us their product, don't they? And then attacking those who disagree with "pics or it didn't happen"... it's just senseless.
So I will share the following publications from Castrol, Amsoil, Penrite, and Chevron/Texaco for those wishing to do their own due diligence. These links may have been shared earlier, but here they are again for new viewer. I just wanted to provide the documentation for others to consider on their own, and I'm not here to argue- so forgive me if I drop and run.
Good luck to all with whatever you may decide.
https://www.castrol.com/en_us/united-states/home/h...specs.html
| Quote: |
API GL-4 – Intended for gear sets with light to heavy load and sliding forces. GL-4 lubricants are often used in syncromesh manual shift on-road and off-road truck transmissions.
API GL-5 – Intended for heavily loaded gear sets with high sliding forces such as hypoid differentials. GL-5 lubricants contain high levels of extreme-pressure additives to provide protection under boundary lubrication conditions. Common heavy duty applications include differentials in on-road and off-road trucks, differentials, final drives in Caterpillar scrapers, and differentials and planetaries in Euclid haul trucks. Some manual-shift transmissions can use GL-5, but typically should not be used in synchromesh-type transmissions, as the EP additives can be corrosive to yellow metals found in those transmission types. Limited-slip differentials also typically require a specific lubricant with a limited-slip additive. |
https://blog.amsoil.com/the-difference-between-gl-4-and-gl-5-gear-oil/
| Quote: |
Where are GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils used?
GL-4 gear oils are typically recommended for spur and helical gears found in manual transmissions and transaxles operating under moderate speeds and loads.
GL-5 gear oils are typically recommended for hypoid gears in automotive axles operating under high-speed, high-load conditions. |
https://penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-centre/Gear%20...-oils/1036
| Quote: |
| Many people are confused about API gear oil classifications. It is a common belief that API GL-5 oils can be used where API GL-4 requirements are specified. Although this is true for “gear oil”, it does not make API GL-5 gear oils satisfactory for all transmissions especially those that use synchromesh. They may meet the “gear oil” specifications, not the transmission oil specifications. API GL-4 and GL-5 categories do not mention or have anything to do with transmission synchronisers. |
| Quote: |
| An API GL-4 gear oil of any given viscosity has about ½ of the level of sulfur/phosphorous additive that would be in the API GL-5 product, so the bond with the metal surface inside the transmission is not as strong, and therefore can be peeled off without peeling a layer of soft metal. This means that the GL-4 product provides a little less extreme pressure protection than a GL-5 oil but less wear on synchromesh components of a transmission. When a GL-5 oil is used in a transmission with synchromesh it can create up to 4 times the amount of copper in a used oil analysis as that of a GL-4 product. Synchronisers will eventually wear to the point where they become ineffective. |
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=729736&docFormat=PDF
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=729735&docFormat=PDF
| Quote: |
Gear Oil GL-4 products are designed for use in automotive
transmissions, transaxles, steering systems and hypoid
drive axles which require a fluid with API GL-4 performance
(equivalent to US Military specification MIL-L-2105).
The friction characteristics of the Gear Oil GL-4 product
range make them suitable for use in many synchronized
manual transmissions. |
vs
| Quote: |
Gear Oil GL-5 products are designed for use in automotive
hypoid drive axles, steering systems, non-synchronized
transmissions and transaxles which require a fluid with API
GL-5 performance.
The friction characteristics of Gear Oil GL-5 products make
them generally unsuitable for use in synchronized manual
transmissions and transaxles, and they should not be used
in these applications unless a GL-5 fluid is specifically
recommended. |
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71 Super
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jim martin
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2004
Posts: 217
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:47 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Here is a good update ,
Installing an input shaft rpm sensor and decided while box is out good time to send it to RANCHO for Mike to go through it . All syncros, R&P , bearings ect great shape.
Mike wants me to give LAT 85w-110 a go and see what I think .
Will be interesting to see how it shifts and feels.
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B.C's fastest street legal vw , June 2006 Hot VW's feature car 9.81 sec at 145.26mph.
Sponsored by :
LUCAS OIL PRODUCTS http://www.lucasoil.com
KROC head porting services
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Airspeedparts.com topic http://airspeedparts.com/forums/index.php?topic=914.0 |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50331
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| jim martin wrote: |
Here is a good update ,
Installing an input shaft rpm sensor and decided while box is out good time to send it to RANCHO for Mike to go through it . All syncros, R&P , bearings ect great shape.
Mike wants me to give LAT 85w-110 a go and see what I think .
Will be interesting to see how it shifts and feels. |
GL-6 is an obsolete spec, IIRC |
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jim martin
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2004
Posts: 217
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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many oil manufactures are using GL6 or Exceeds GL5 ratings ,basically the same thing .
the most important thing to take away from this is these oils are some of the most advanced out there and offer both great gearbox operation and superior gear protection, which is tuff to beat .
_________________
B.C's fastest street legal vw , June 2006 Hot VW's feature car 9.81 sec at 145.26mph.
Sponsored by :
LUCAS OIL PRODUCTS http://www.lucasoil.com
KROC head porting services
Dialedinperformance.com
Airspeedparts.com topic http://airspeedparts.com/forums/index.php?topic=914.0 |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50331
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| jim martin wrote: |
many oil manufactures are using GL6 or Exceeds GL5 ratings ,basically the same thing .
the most important thing to take away from this is these oils are some of the most advanced out there and offer both great gearbox operation and superior gear protection, which is tuff to beat . |
A lot of oils use to say GL-4/GL-5, which meant the oil exceeded Gl-4 specs and at least met GL-5 specs, it didn't mean the GL-4/GL-5 oils could and should be used where GL-4 is specified. In my opinion to say an oil is GL-6 is more advertising hype than anything else. |
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daveg131
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2022
Posts: 7
Location: Cabot, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:48 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| I read thru quite a bit of this thread, but not nearly all of it. Anyone using the PennGrade 80w-90 GL-4 oil? |
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udidwht
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Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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