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Brake Will Not Get Solid
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ElskanTriumph
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:56 am    Post subject: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

My brake pedal shows no resistance. At times, I get some but not enough to really engage the brakes.

This is a new system as I am building it from the ground up. All new parts and lines.

I have bled the system and bled it again (and again). I've done it farthest wheel to nearest and front first, then back, then front. I've done gravity and the two-person method.

Yesterday, I replaced the master cylinder. The old master cylinder was new, but I thought there might be an internal leak. Same result.

I have also jacked up each wheel and tightened the settings until the drums drag.

I can find no leaks. The reservoir does not go down except when I bleed it.

When I turn the car on, the brake lights are on--whether I've got my foot on the pedal or not.

At the point, I'm just chasing my tail.


Last edited by ElskanTriumph on Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dougy Dee
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

Move both adjusters on all 4 wheels so they are tight (heavy drag) to the drums. Rebleed.
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ElskanTriumph
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

After setting them tight/hard drag, do I undo that if it works?

I did set them for a light drag, but I'll ramp that up.
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Pruneman99
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

I've given this advice to almost every thread where this is a problem.

Tighten all the shoes to LOCK to the drums. Then bleed. It will take all the movement out of the system and only allow fluid to move to the wheel you're working on. Also, it will help to make sure all the shoes are centered in the drum.

Once you have a rock solid pedal,.then go back and back the adjusters off until you have a bit more drag than you would normally use. Go stomp on the brake some more. This should really help the shoes get perfectly centered. Then do final adjustments.
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61SNRF
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

ElskanTriumph wrote:
...
When I turn the car on, the brake lights are on--whether I've got my foot on the pedal or not...

This may be a problem. If the M/C piston is not retuming all the way that may cause problems bleeding.

Make sure the pushrod is adjusted so there is freeplay...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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61SNRF
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Last edited by 61SNRF on Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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madmike
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

If you do all that and it still feels like sponge? install stainless steel flex line on all for corners, they don't expand like rubber lines Wink
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ElskanTriumph
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

Thanks, all. 615NRF, you might be on to something. There is certainly play, but my brake pedal is way forward. I am wondering if the brakes have been locked this entire time? The parking brake works and I just assumed....

I will report back.
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jinx758
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

Perhaps the return spring on the brake pedal is not hooked or has broken.
Mite be worth checking as you claim the pedal is forward, not sure if this is the whole cluster or just the brake pedal.
If you change the cluster location this could affect both the clutch & throttle cable adjustments.

Best to you ... stay safe.

jinx
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ElskanTriumph
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

Progress. I took off all of the hubs to see if all was okay and if things responded. They did respond when I pushed the pedal, but what I thought was having adjusted it to hard hold was not that. As everything has been redone and it never saw the road (just rolled to where it is now) I think I got some rub but not the whole shoe. As I did each wheel, prior to bleeding, I felt a bit of response in the pedal.

Related, and perhaps the problem, is that a one of the tabs holding the adjustment wheel was not on the wheel. Another was broken off. I'm annoyed as these are new back plates. I suppose I'll have to address that.

I had adjusted the pedal rod so I had an inch of free play. Near the end of the push the pedal got hard and I was able to stop the car as I drove around my house a few times. That seems like too much play. Plus, the brake lights are still on. Still, it stopped.

Brake lights: When I take the electric wires off the rear sensor the lights go out. The front sensor has no effect. I'm afraid my new master cylinder is off and I'll be back to square one. Tired of bleeding.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

Read this through again. 1st paragraph. 1mm between the brake actuating rod and the MC piston.
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The brake lights stay on, due to residual brake fluid pressure remaining after releasing the brake pedal .
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ElskanTriumph
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

Thanks 67Rustavenger! Questions:

In the first photo, the brake and clutch pedals are even. In the second, the brake pedal is much closer to the driver. My car looks like the second photo. I'm confused what I'm aiming for there.

Also, is the freeplay from wherever the pedal is (mine: second photo) or some other starting point?

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

That little pedal adjustment plate forward of the pedals in the second pic evens out the pedals.
It's slotted so you can adjust it fore and aft to even out the clutch and brake pedals.
The adjustment plate can and will get worn/bent over time.

Worry about that later. The idea here is to get your brakes functioning properly first.
Then we can talk about the finite clutch pedal and brake pedal adjustments.
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ElskanTriumph
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Brake Will Not Get Solid Reply with quote

Two problems causing two symptoms.

As reported, I had gone wheel to wheel, pulled the hub and adjusted to make sure everything worked. Tightened it so hub would not turn. Then, bled. Better.

I used to own a Triumph Spitfire and a guy on those forums always used a method of harden the brakes. He would jam a broomstick into the front seat, holding the brake pedal down. Then, he would loosen the filler cap to let air out. Air would then rise and go out the reservoir over time. He suggested overnight and it has worked for my Triumph.

I cut a 2 x 4 to fit between the pedal and the seat. Then, I went away for two days. When I came back, the brakes were better. Hard? No. That might be the missing spar tab or something else, but I have brakes.

First problem under control, I turned to the brake lights being on. As suggested, I adjusted the play. No change. But, when I slid under the car I noticed that the rear brake sensor was leaking. Now, the brakes being more firm, pushed the sensor to its breaking point. Shame, as they are new.

I have replaced the sensor and the brake lights are as they should be--on or off when they should be.

I am currently bleeding the brakes, again. I'd like them to be rock hard, but I need to deal with other issues. Updates to come if there is more to update. Thanks to all for the help.
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