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Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle.
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CrazyTestPilot
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

Did you try putting the electronic module in the other dizzy which has the points? That should tell you if it's a mechanical (dizzy) problem or electrical . Also, make sure the screw holding the mod is solid and tight. With the dizzy out of the car put on the cap and rotor and see if it still spins freely or if there is any thing weird there. I had that problem once and just needed a different cap.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

So, with all of the issues that people are reporting with the Pertronix Ignitor III SVDA...to include the quality of the distributor itself, the sensitivity of the Ignitor III to input voltage and susceptibility of it to electrical interference what does everyone think of the Ignitor II and the I? I'm going to have Bill at Sparxwerks rebuild a 205AL distributor for me for my Puma and was thinking about an Ignitor III for it but with the reported issues I'm now leaning more towards an Ignitor II or even possibly a I.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

Notchman65 wrote:
So, with all of the issues that people are reporting with the Pertronix Ignitor III SVDA...to include the quality of the distributor itself, the sensitivity of the Ignitor III to input voltage and susceptibility of it to electrical interference what does everyone think of the Ignitor II and the I? I'm going to have Bill at Sparxwerks rebuild a 205AL distributor for me for my Puma and was thinking about an Ignitor III for it but with the reported issues I'm now leaning more towards an Ignitor II or even possibly a I.


With all the drama of all the pertronix modules and pertronix distributors, it makes more sense to go to reliable points or reliable msd style mag pickup and skip everything in between.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

I've never had any issues with the Pertronix I modules & coils. All the drama I have read about is with the Pertronix III modules & coils.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:17 am    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

Well being strung along with the group it's clear THEY meaning P-111 AKA
DA FLAMETHROWER are aware they have many ISSUES to address.

THIS is a big company WHO is selling (MORE than just a few)A NON functioning product Then proceeds
to make the customer AS the 1 WHO is at FAULT.

AS i went through pretty much everything every1 has described AND STILL no luck.
I would like what i paid for to work PROPERLY, IF not send me BETTER PARTS.
What is the problem.

THIS DISTRIBUTOR is your property you Sell them they should Function as what it's intended use is ADVERTISED AS 4.

NO where does it say THIS DISTRIBUTOR will cause your motor to MISFIRE3.
IF IT DID, i WOULD not be wasting my time NOR WOULD any1 else.

Send me a new shaft OR HOW about some tighter SHAFT bearings. BETTER yet HOW about a new 1.
Take mine figure out its malfunction update it.
THEN the product this company sells can solve it's problem.

1 could drop in a VW DISTRIBUTOR eyes closed, have fewer problems than this!


UNREAL,,,,,, WE PAY them TO tell us YOU are WRONG.
IN A WAY this is a scam!

HEY check out THIS NEW MISFIRETHROWER.

YOUR in BUSNESS for selling a VW product MAKING more than a few very UNHAPPY!

THat's just splendid.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:59 am    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

I think i give SDSEFI a call to see if there distributorless coil pack could work for a street motor.

I Installed the SDSEFI in my other 4 banger in 2006 NOT 1 issue.

HE IS a small company.
Seems like the only people who stand behind what they sell IN THE Aftermarket world.

I,M not 1 to be part of a problem,
rather be part of the solution.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
A good friend came by last weekend because he couldn’t tune out a flat spot/stumble.
We were going to play with my wideband until i looked at the timing light.
Advance was sporadic and just wacky.

It was a full Pertronix distributor.

The vacuum can was the stiffest crappy immobile POS imaginable.
Not sure how many inches to move it but easily a ton.

The point plate was super rough and a crude stamping with burrs and lumps.
Tons of work with jewelry files were needed to get it to even slide.

Advance weight mechanism was super sloppy-
The pins were so loose in the weights they moved up and down as much as in and out.

In a nutshell it was a horrid collection of junk inside that were just vestiges of the parts they were looking to copy.

So,
Aside from any electrical issues with the module,
The distributor they sell has many issues related to very very poor quality construction.

Any of those old Bosch you see at the swaps for $3 are bound to be far better.


This is part of what I have been getting at. Part of it.

I have only actually held in my hands...two ignitor 3's. They were not mine, They were not VW and I was not doing the install. They were brand new.

At a glance they seemed nicely finished. They also felt a little loose and rattly....no different than a Bosch 205P with 200k miles on it. Laughing

But without measuring or running it that may mean nothing.

But its the same issue with any distributor. I see a lot of people putting a Pertronix 1 module into a 45 year old distributor without doing anything to it and expecting it to run at minimum exactly the same or...better. Why would you expect that?

Points are forgiving. The dwell angle is wide. They mask a lot of slop, wear, voltage variation and rust in the distributor.

The Pertronix and Compufire module is a little less forgiving. It can magnify some of these issues...especially if you have ALL of these issues which is more common than not....especially if you have a vacuum distributor with a points plate.

About 90% of these I find have issues between the points plates, issues with the screw length through the top plate, issues with the wear between the crimped finger opposite the ball causing lift to the plate, issues with wear at the vacuum can lug on the points plate, issues with the ball and spring causing a wear divot in the plate....and then we get into the universal issues.....wear to the pivot points on the advance weights, rust under the weights, springs missing or shot....the shaft bearings being worn out and giving radial play. The shim set being shot giving axial play....the points cam worn out or worn different from side to side due to shaft play......................and because of all this crap ....a compufire module or Pertronix module can run like crap or worse in a stock distributor.

So....since we see many threads asking about this aftermarket distributor or that aftermarket distributor...most being foreign made, discount copies of the Bosch distributor.....and just as many times or not...people rate these distributors as poorly machined, inaccurate crap.

They have just as many problems....all of the above.....as a worn out 45 year old stock distributor.

My main point.....is .....its rarely the module system itself that is the issue. Too many people have had excellent luck with those for too long.

Yeah....there were some module and magnet ring quality issues a few years back....but overall, the vast majority of people i see bitching about a Pertronix 1 or Compufire having poor performance in a Bosch distributor.....usually cannot or will not answer the questions when I ask if they addressed not only the issues listed above....but the issues of specific fit in their distributor. As I noted...they are rarely direct drop in modules across the entire range of VW distributor production.


So.....IF the problem we see with the Pertronix 3 is MAINLY about the distributor body and shaft itself...and nor a module issue....then simply don't buy the "distributor body". Buy a decent or even a bad Bosch unit....and spent a few hours and make it right and tight...and drop in a Pertronix 1 module. Or if you MUST have adaptive dwell....get a Pertronix 2 module and drop that in.

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

Yes my Pertronics III electronics seem ok, it was the mechanical bits that were rude, crude and tattooed! They had everything that Ray mentioned.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
mikedjames wrote:
The Pertronix III is effectively using a reluctor wheel with only two lobes per revolution of the engine, and relying on the gentle cam profile of the points cam to provide the presence or absence of metal in front of the sensor.

If there is electrical disturbance, or the distributor centre shaft has radial play in it, or timing modifications on the lobes, the timing that the computer inside the Pertronix unit derives from the limited information coming in will be bad.

Another factor is that e.g. a 10 rpm drop of speed at idle is a much larger percentage than 10 rpm drop at 5000 rpm, so the prediction of when to fire is less accurate at idle, and becomes better at speed.

It is probably an attempt in the longer term to cost-down and only provide one unit in the box for any number of cylinders without having to make up magnet wheels.

At this price, the 123 units look more competitive at getting the job done.


Yes....in all of my Pertronix yammering....what you stated is partly what I have been getting at.

These units are too "generalized"...and not just from car type to car type and engine to engine.

The VW distributor is both accurate and crude at the same time. When looking from the points...point of view....the VW/Bosch units are excellent and plenty accurate.
When looking from a magnetic switch and electronics point of view....they are crude.
The tolerances in the shaft axial and radial play as well as the variation in machining (not even to mention wear) in the points cam lobes....variations in points mounting plates, advance weights and springs and vacuum cans and you have a lot of potential for variation in signal....and that is in the VW distributor.

Over the years these variations gave lots of set up work issues for both Pertronix and compufire. I also agree with Modok that Compufire has been a better built product.

Add in a distributor made by Pertronix that may not have any tighter tolerances than a Bosch distributor but with electronics that are less tolerant to error than points....and you can/will have roughly the same issues as dropping a Compufire or Pertronix 1 module into a 45 year Bosch unit.

One of the biggest problems I have found with both Compufire and Pertronix is that the power supply in all but the best restored of our ancient vehicles is "dirty", imprecise and variable.
Add in electrical interference possibly generated by a whole slew of items in our vehicles.....and all of what we see here can happen.

I also say what I just said....because more and more I see people using these units with the proper and recommended coil and FINALLY find out it runs BETTER with a higher or lower resistance coil.

That last fact says to me....power variation...resistance variation...shielding variation...temperature variation....and probably product circuit variation as well.

Ray


Great argument for crank fire.... No moving parts to wear out....
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

All you guys bought a chinese distributors?
I thought we were just talking about modules in bosche distributors d'oh!

If I was going to buy a chinese distributor I'd want a GM HEI or Japanese style inductive pickup, with a MSD or Daytona sensors timing control, and that would then run the CDI or inductive coil driver. That's way it's versatile to anything you want to do.
When in rome do as the romans do...... you know?

one time I won a made in mexico 009 in a raffle, it worked ok but you could tell it wasn't comparable to old German precision.

Most vehicles and core engine I bought already had distributors so I never really needed a new one.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

I am done with buying distributors. If I don’t have a good original German one then it’s crank trigger for me from now on. Been there done the new Chinese replacement thing and there is NO future in it! Those things are only good for getting the car on and off the trailer.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

I can’t speak to your Pertronix III.
I bought the Pertronix II setup but I didn’t use the distributor. Instead, I put the module in my German 094 (chrome uh-oh nine). It does have a different/better? advance curve and seems to run very well.
I also bought a MagnaSpark II but that is still in the box on a shelf for the just in case.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

jeffrey8164 wrote:
I put the module in my German 094 (chrome uh-oh nine). It does have a different/better? advance curve and seems to run very well.


Yes the 094 has a different curve than a 009. Hot VW's did a comparison somewhere around 30 years ago. The 094 has almost the exact same curve as the 010.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

When i was younger us kids screwing around, Would always say, WHO died and made you BOSS. I SAY this with reason.

My father passed.
There was a WILL. A WILL that was Blacked OUT. So now my step brother is the BOSS.
There was my dads VW. That i tore apart a put back together when younger. 1988 ish.

2019 Dads gone. I have 2 options let my step brother have my VW.
Because I REALLY need DENTAL work done. NOT so fast.
My Wonderful brother of step Took all the Cars, ALL the property, And threw out most of there belongings. Do i want a life or a VW.
What i have now is my VW.
That brings me to the reason im here.
Petronix sent my dis back, At first they said the mod failed. Then the invoice, says TESTED GOOD.
OK Lets try it out. NO change.
SO I chuck lobe end of the FLAME thrower dis in the lathe im not aware or have seen lobes vary as much as these. This is the 2nd time shaving them down. 1st time HAD NO EFFECT. THE 2nd shave made air gap to large now the IG3 module wont work in FT distributor.
I remove the IG3 module from the FT DIS and with THE 009 that's in the car I place the IG3 module onto its points plate. Air gap is largest yet
WELL there was no way i could drive the car, only at first did it not miss then the timing was all over the place. tried a resistor AT first no miss. then acts like its losing ground backing firing sputtering. Seems like the longer it runs the worse it gets.
NOW the FT IG3 DIS would miss as soon as it was running and never change no matter how long the car was running. was able to drive.
Could not drive with module in the 009 dis.
YOU can buy a IG3 module for the 009 lobe sensing that i did not know.
IM Pretty sure the difference between the 2 bosch IG3 Modules part numbers 1 for mechanical VAC brake PLATE and the other without .
Next put the points in the FT SVDA distributor and see how good MY LOBE JOB IS.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:09 am    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

Of the (2) Pertronix modules I've had for (German 009 and SVDA) neither gave me an issue/s. Both bought back in 2005.

One I put into a Pertronix SVDA then later a Bosch SVDA. The Pertronix SVDA I did take completely apart and check it over then reassembled and lubed with Super Lube. Ended up doing the same with the Bosch one.

As for points...

Good luck getting any decent ones. They're all crap. Unless of course you horded a bunch over the years but that don't get for most. LOL!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

udidwht wrote:
Of the (2) Pertronix modules I've had for (German 009 and SVDA) neither gave me an issue/s. Both bought back in 2005.

One I put into a Pertronix SVDA then later a Bosch SVDA. The Pertronix SVDA I did take completely apart and check it over then reassembled and lubed with Super Lube. Ended up doing the same with the Bosch one.

As for points...

Good luck getting any decent ones. They're all crap. Unless of course you horded a bunch over the years but that don't get for most. LOL!


As for pertronix modules...

Good luck getting any decent ones. They're all crap. Unless of course you horded a bunch that you purchashed in 2005 back when they were good.
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
udidwht wrote:
Of the (2) Pertronix modules I've had for (German 009 and SVDA) neither gave me an issue/s. Both bought back in 2005.

One I put into a Pertronix SVDA then later a Bosch SVDA. The Pertronix SVDA I did take completely apart and check it over then reassembled and lubed with Super Lube. Ended up doing the same with the Bosch one.

As for points...

Good luck getting any decent ones. They're all crap. Unless of course you horded a bunch over the years but that don't get for most. LOL!


As for pertronix modules...

Good luck getting any decent ones. They're all crap. Unless of course you horded a bunch that you purchashed in 2005 back when they were good.


Folks complained even back then of the modules.
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Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

I like to stick to points from Napa Auto parts, SMP or Eichlin work great, and replace crappy Pertronix and their clones well. Better than Bosch these days.

Been disappointed in Pertronix and the clones too many times.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

OK Folks, update from my post above.
After turning the shaft in the FT IGN3 dizzy twice, 1st time the lobes all varied in height. Note , FT DIZZY STILL worked with IGN3 module as it did before i turned it. Same miss #2 cyl.
2nd time i turned it to clean up the lobes and made them smooth then milled the flats all equal to each other.
Now the FT DIZZY IGN3 MODULE will hardly run at all.
I TRY both IGN3 MODULES (i was sent another one) in the 009 points dizzy from the car. Neither of them worked at all.
The IGN3 IS a lobe sensing module and fits in the place of the points following the instructions.
Now i take the SVDA IGN3 DIZZY put my points in where Eletronic module sat.
16 thou for the gap. THE car ran as it should. I thought for sure i had destroyed the FT DIZZY shaft with my lobe job. NOT THE CASE.
THE feedback on the IGN3 module is VERY POOR. Not just the 4CYL the whole freaking sha bang. Mech parts- A GRADE. ELETRONIC parts- BIG FAT FAILURE.
How i see it .
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Pertronix Ignitor III Rough Idle. Reply with quote

I had terrible experience with ft 3 too. Was told to use the 3om coil over the ..32 recommended one years ago. Just called Pertronix today to see if that still was what they were recommending and the guy was a total jerk and said his ft3 worked just fine. Pertronix not only.lost a customer, but now I will tell everybody how terribe the ft3 and the cutomer service is!!!
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