Noise from front wheel power steering

[Stannardmc]

Hi all, first time poster with not much mechanically knowledge looking for some advice on a shuddering/groaning noise coming from the front wheel of our T3 1990 Westfalia. The noise started today as we began our drive down France for our summer holiday. Haven’t noticed any problem while we’ve been driving on the motorway, but the sound is noticeable at slow speed when driving around the petrol station, and around carparks and also when turning the wheel when stationary. It’s been 32degrees and we’ve done 500k driving today so not sure if the heat has caused it. We also had the front wheel bearings and stub axle replaced last week so not sure if that could have caused something. We’re parked up in a campsite for the night but was hoping for some advice before we continue our journey tomorrow. Having done a few google searches I think I know where the steering fluid reservoir is so plan on checking levels in the morning. Thanks in advance. Mat

[Stannardmc]

Update. I check the power steering fluid levels and it’s well below min. Trying to upload some photos if I can figure out how. There seems to be some fluid on the pipes. Lots of questions I need help answering? - Why would this fluid be low? Can I just top up monitor and continue driving? What type fluid do I need to buy? Do I take call breakdown and get it to a garage straight away (it’s Sunday so not ideal).

[Stannardmc]

[DuncanS]

Top it off and try to find the leak. If not too serious, then take extra fluid on your drive. Find out where the leaks is and order the part/s and replace them when you return. Most likely the rack. If a bad leak, disconnect the power steering pump belt and drive without it as you will burn out the pump if there is no fluid in it. It's only really needed when parking or turning at slow speed. On the highway, you won't even notice.

Duncan

[djkeev]

Assuming it isn't dragging brakes, worn wheel bearing or other wheel related defect.........

No fluid is your noise.
Add GM automatic transmission fluid.
Just top off the tank and drive, stop several times to top off. It will self bleed.
Once it is bled...... it will also leak! 😂😂
Keep an eye on the level.

Why no fluid?

These power steering pipes are a ferrous steel and prone to rust and pin holes.

Many/most people install flexible hydraulic hoses to replace the pipes. Fitting new pipes is a nightmare with how they route.

The FAQ has a section on making these repairs.......

The leak could also be a leaking pump or in the rack and pinion.
Once the system is filled, the leak will show itself.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798


https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=383712


Dave
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[MsTaboo]

When you go to add AT fluid to the reservoir just remove the orange/red cap, not the black portion (there's a spring under that). Be careful to keep everything clean.

Fill to the max level line and then start van and turn the front wheels full left and right a couple times, this will help to pump the fluid throughout the rack.
Turn off engine and check fluid level again and add more if needed, repeat until full.

Look for leaks, sometimes it's just a loose hose clamp and you can tighten (don't over tighten). Get under the van and trace the hard lines from the rear to the front. There is a short rubber hose section about halfway on the lines, check for leaks.
If there are leaks on the hardline connections at the power steering rack these can also be tightened, but be careful you can break things by being too aggressive. Also check the rubber boots on the rack, these can sometimes have lost fluid inside them from seal leaks. If the boots have fluid inside them you need a new or rebuilt rack.
Good luck and welcome to the Samba!
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[Stannardmc]

Duncan, Dave, MsTaboo, thank you so much for advice. Had the brakes checked a few weeks ago and new front wheel bearing last week (not been having much luck recently) so pretty sure it’s not those. This morning was been towed to a garage and booked in for work on Tuesday (Mondays a bleeding bank holiday here in France, how unlucky). Will have a look over all the things you mentioned above, not that I can do more than tighten some jubilee clips, but more so I’m a bit more informed when dealing with the garage, and try avoid getting ripped off. Think the garage we’ve been taken too doesn't have good reviews, so a justified concern I’m going to get hit with an overly large bill.

Really good to know that I could take the belt off and drive without power steering, would that be a sensible option to continue our journey to the Alps and back (1500k over 3 weeks) then get my local trusted garage to repair when we return to Blighty? Either if the quote is excessive, or if theyre going to take a long time to order parts (steering rack for example). Got the family in the back so wouldn’t want to do anything that might be dangerous.

[Stannardmc]

Guess you can’t tell anything from this photo of the steering rack without me taking the boots off? This sounds like the part that could get expensive. No visible leaks that my inexperienced eye can see.

[Wildthings]

You can get PS fluid with an anti-leak additive so maybe you can get an ATF with an antileak additive as well. Don't remember what I used, but a dozen years back my rack was leaking pretty bad, so I added some fluid with an anti-leak additive and I only lose maybe an ounce of fluid a year at this point.

[Stannardmc]

…following on from above. If it IS ok to drive with the power steering belt removed, and it’ll be drivable on local roads in the Alps etc, then some simple instructions on how to do this would be really appreciated. Unfortunately I have very limited tools with me (was only expecting to have to repair our cycles not the van) so would likely need to find a friendly French chap to borrow from.

[djkeev]

Again, assuming that your noise is the power steering and not a wheel mechanical issue.

Simply cut the belt to the pump.
To remove it properly is fairly involved.

No harm driving without P/S at all.

I drove from Crater Lake Oregon to New Jersey (3,000+ miles) without that belt.

Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[DuncanS]

Dave is correct about the hydraulic lines running from front to back in steel tubing. Back by there tranny, it sits directly against the frame and so salt and crud will collect there and rot out the steel. This is impossible to see, but if you have a mirror and a light, you can look down on top of the frame to see what condition they are in. I'll bet terrible. Hoses are available as a replacement and you just abandon the steel tubes where they are.

Here is a photo showing mine just before they failed. The are the horribly rusted lines running vertically in the photo, under the left side of the large light colored starter motor line running diagonally.

Duncan

[Stannardmc]

To minimise the risk of getting ripped off by the French garage tomorrow I think I’m going to top up the power steering fluid and monitor it as we drive, then get leak repaired by my garage when we get home. With the back up that if the leak is very bad I will cut the power steering belt and drive without.

Had a look in a French supermarket and the only red ATF they had was Dexron III. I’ve been told I need Dexron II and that Dexron III won’t be any good. Is that correct? I’m going to try some auto parts shops tomorrow when everything opens again after the bank holiday, hopefully Dexron II is common enough to that they will stock it.

Loving this forum and the advice you guys are giving. Thank you again.

[clift_d]

Dexron III(H) should be fine - it's the same spec as the Fuchs Titan ATF 4000 which Brickwerks sell for T25 power steering, and it's backwards compatible with all previous versions.
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1988 LHD T25 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro

[Stannardmc]

Thanks Clift, good to know Dexron III should ok. Will have a look at Brickwerks.

It definitely looks like a leak from the steering rack. Brown fluid which looks like the same colour as in the reservoir. Not enough to show on the floor after the van has stood for 24hrs, so I guess only a slow leak, may be since the last service 9 months ago. It has lost a lot of fluid from the reservoir though so must have been dripping for some time, so surprised I hadn’t seen it on the drive, but I have been chasing an engine oil leak recently so black drips vs brown drips easily missed I guess.

Some photos of the steering rack drop below. I’m guessing the steering rack is a specialist part a French garage will take time to get hold off so will probably not want to wait around for a repair, better to top up, monitor and carry on with our holiday. But would appreciate any thoughts.

[djkeev]

You are out of oil in the system.

You won't know the true extent of your leak until you fill it, run it, fill it, run it and the air is bled out.

It may be a very slow drip and your shop simply overlooked checking that fluid level, it is kind of out of sight.
The level may have been slowly dropping for years.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Howesight]

From what this Geordie ex pat can see under your Westy, that rack has been slowly leaking a long time. Top up the power steering fluid, carry on, and let Marcel work on his croissant instead of your van!
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX

[Stannardmc]

Thanks Howesite, think your right. I topped up to max yesterday evening and drove a few hours. Checked this morning and fluid is only just below max. The journey continues.

[Stannardmc]

Hi guys, we’re back in Blighty. Thanks to all your advice we managed to continue on our holiday and get back to the uk without further issue. The power steering fluid initially needed about 500ml to top it up to max, then only needed about 50-100ml top up after driving all the way down France (~1,000km/12hours) and another 50-100ml top up after driving back 2 weeks later. So quite a slow leak. The leak is definitely coming from the steering rack.

I’ve go the van booking into my garage later this week to get it looking at, but in the meantime I wanted to get an idea of what sort of repair I’m looking at.
- Can just the leaky seals be replaced?
- or does the whole steering rack need replacing with new, or refurbishing? (I had a quick google and it looks like the part is around £600 plus fittings… gulp).

Cheers, Mat

[Stannardmc]

Hi guys, we’re back in Blighty. Thanks to all your advice we managed to continue on our holiday and get back to the uk without further issue. The power steering fluid initially needed about 500ml to top it up to max, then only needed about 50-100ml top up after driving all the way down France (~1,000km/12hours) and another 50-100ml top up after driving back 2 weeks later. So quite a slow leak. The leak is definitely coming from the steering rack.

I’ve go the van booking into my garage later this week to get it looking at, but in the meantime I wanted to get an idea of what sort of repair I’m looking at.
- Can just the leaky seals be replaced?
- or does the whole steering rack need replacing with new, or refurbishing? (I had a quick google and it looks like the part is around £600 plus fittings… gulp).

Cheers, Mat