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Kblack1101
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Joined: August 05, 2020
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Location: Wisconsin
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 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:12 am Post subject: New Points - Install issue |
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Last night I installed new Condenser and New points in my recently refurbished 022905205S from Bill @ Sparxworks
- Old points were burning and causing (what I suspect) to be some intermittent stumbling / bucking while driving. They were stuck completely and once free'd and gapped the bus ran great for about 500 miles- the issue came back.
- Decided it would be best to replace condenser - easy swap, not too expensive and a likely candidate for burning points
- I found some Echlin ECH CS313P - Vented points which NAPA says is a direct fit for my application. These appear to be high quality and I am hoping the vented contact helps reduce my issue of points burning
- Upon installation, I attempt to static time the engine for starting. The timing light is ALWAYS ON. Points open, points closed, timing light ON. Sweep the dizzy both directions - timing light ON.
- I go back to my old burned points - Timing light functions as expected, .016" gap for starting - dwell adjusted to 44° and final timing set to 28-30° @ 3500RPM (vac hose disconnected)
- Today on my way into work - stumbling re occurs to a lesser extent. 
Why are the ECHLIN points having what seems to be a ground issue? What am I missing?
I ordered a pertronix unit - I am getting sick of the points / condenser game. But I need to have reliable spares in the kit just incase pertronix fails me on the road.
Has anyone encountered this? Is there another PN I can try for vented points?
Thanks in advance 
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Glenn 
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:27 am Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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Test the points with a ohm meter, I bet they are shorted.
Shit happens
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Glenn
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Kblack1101
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:32 am Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Test the points with a ohm meter, I bet they are shorted.
Shit happens |
Glenn, I would have to re-install the suspect components to do so - correct? Can I bench test points for resistance? If so, can you briefly describe how-to and what type of reading I should see? Thanks.
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Glenn
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:52 am Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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No need to reinstall, just touch one probe to the mounting base of the points and the other probe to the wire. Then open the points the meter should swing.
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Glenn
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:54 am Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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No, you do not have to install the points.
First, those points are typically very high quality. Those are made by SMP for NAPA. While not the absolute top of the pyramid in the SMP line...they are close. They have the extra copper conductor strip against the spring and have the larger tungsten, vented electrode set. Good design.
But...that does not mean you did not get a defective set.
Take a volt meter set on continuity and connect to the wire with one probe and the other on the metal bracket. Open and close the points. You should break contact when open and make contact when closed.
Make sure that the fixed leg of the point set is not bent and staying out of contact.
Next...check the copper strip in the picture below with the big arrow pointed at it. Make sure its not twisted out of line and touching the base bracket.
Next....check to see if the plastic insulator button shown by the small arrow is there....and seated properly. Then check to make sure that the crimped wire holder is on the correct side of that insulator button as per the picture.
If by chance someone fiddled with this point set and took the insulator out and put it back together wrong and the wire crimp ring is on the outside...it will connect direct to ground.
Ray |
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Kblack1101
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Joined: August 05, 2020
Posts: 162
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| No need to reinstall, just touch one probe to the mounting base of the points and the other probe to the wire. Then open the points the meter should swing. |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
No, you do not have to install the points.
First, those points are typically very high quality. Those are made by SMP for NAPA. While not the absolute top of the pyramid in the SMP line...they are close. They have the extra copper conductor strip against the spring and have the larger tungsten, vented electrode set. Good design.
But...that does not mean you did not get a defective set.
Take a volt meter set on continuity and connect to the wire with one probe and the other on the metal bracket. Open and close the points. You should break contact when open and make contact when closed.
Make sure that the fixed leg of the point set is not bent and staying out of contact.
Next...check the copper strip in the picture below with the big arrow pointed at it. Make sure its not twisted out of line and touching the base bracket.
Next....check to see if the plastic insulator button shown by the small arrow is there....and seated properly. Then check to make sure that the crimped wire holder is on the correct side of that insulator button as per the picture.
If by chance someone fiddled with this point set and took the insulator out and put it back together wrong and the wire crimp ring is on the outside...it will connect direct to ground.
Ray |
Thanks for the tips and the advice Glenn and Ray. I will do as suggested when I get home from work today.
Ray - based on my basic observations of fit and finish these really do seem to be high quality. For what it is worth, they even weigh more than the points I am attempting to replace. I really hope I can figure them out. I do have a second set I of the NAPA points to compare the set in question against.
Thanks again! I will report back.
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Kblack1101
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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I’m not too proud to admit I should have been able to figure this one out. Thanks again Ray and Glenn.
Turns out the wire crimp missed resulting in no continuity between the wire and the contact.
The other set function just fine and the termination looks clean. I will get the bad ones replaced.
Thanks again!! 
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bsairhead
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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| That is a problem. A different problem. If that crimp is not allowing continuity you would not have a light. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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| bsairhead wrote: |
| That is a problem. A different problem. If that crimp is not allowing continuity you would not have a light. |
If you can't get continuity through the points the light would stay on all the time, whether the points are open or closed. |
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Kblack1101
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| bsairhead wrote: |
| That is a problem. A different problem. If that crimp is not allowing continuity you would not have a light. |
If you can't get continuity through the points the light would stay on all the time, whether the points are open or closed. |
This is / was my understanding also….there very well could be additional issues at play however what I do know is that based on the results shown and heard from the multimeter in the background of the photo - that bad termination is not providing continuity… compared against 2 spare sets of points for a sanity check
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heimlich
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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01011 points work well in those units. I've got lots of different ones https://www.vwnos.com/search?q=01011
I run Beru in my vehicles because they are cheap and the QA is good across the board on them. I think I have 3,000 miles on my current set.
What coil do you have?
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bsairhead
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| bsairhead wrote: |
| That is a problem. A different problem. If that crimp is not allowing continuity you would not have a light. |
If you can't get continuity through the points the light would stay on all the time, whether the points are open or closed. |
I am lost, if the points don't show a currant path when closed how could you light a tester? |
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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Power off on the engine.
zero your meter. Make sure every time you touch the probes together the meter goes to zero or close to that. With the points open in your hand or a paper business card etc between the contacts, touch one probe to the base and one to the black wire. The meter should show open. Pull the paper out, the meter should show a zero or close to it. If not you have a defective set of points.
With the points hooked up to the condenser, and the green wire disconnected from the coil, with the points in the distributor and the distributor in the car, with one probe on the case and one on the green wire, the points should show open when the points are open and on the lobe, and zero or close to it with the points closed and the rubbing block off the lobe.
The points are nothing more than an on off switch for the coil. If you try to measure with the green wire connected to the coil then you are also seeing anything else in the coil circuit that is connected. For example the choke heating coil, the relay on the carb etc..
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Kblack1101
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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| heimlich wrote: |
01011 points work well in those units. I've got lots of different ones https://www.vwnos.com/search?q=01011
I run Beru in my vehicles because they are cheap and the QA is good across the board on them. I think I have 3,000 miles on my current set.
What coil do you have? |
Thanks for the tip on the points. Maybe I will pick up a couple sets
Current coil is a pertronix flamethrower. Has maybe 2k/mi on it
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SGKent
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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| Kblack1101 wrote: |
| Current coil is a pertronix flamethrower. Has maybe 2k/mi on it |
and you wanted to know why the original points didn't last.There is your answer. It pulls too much current and that fries the points.
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Kblack1101
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Kblack1101 wrote: |
| Current coil is a pertronix flamethrower. Has maybe 2k/mi on it |
and you wanted to know why the original points didn't last.There is your answer. It pulls too much current and that fries the points. |
Not arguing with you- but I’m not sure what you mean about current draw? It operates on 12 volt and has 3ohm resistance - which is the rating of a stock coil. I’m open to hearing about how that works because I am so tired of chasing this issue…. Doesn’t the condenser act as a buffer between coil and points during spark?
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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| Kblack1101 wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| Kblack1101 wrote: |
| Current coil is a pertronix flamethrower. Has maybe 2k/mi on it |
and you wanted to know why the original points didn't last.There is your answer. It pulls too much current and that fries the points. |
Not arguing with you- but I’m not sure what you mean about current draw? It operates on 12 volt and has 3ohm resistance - which is the rating of a stock coil. I’m open to hearing about how that works because I am so tired of chasing this issue…. Doesn’t the condenser act as a buffer between coil and points during spark? |
The coil has resistance and inductance, both are typically given in ohms though they are quite different. I really don't know anything about the Flamethrower coil, but to put out a hotter spark it is going to need to draw more current on the average than a stock coil and may need a different condenser to work well. |
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Kblack1101
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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What coil does everyone suggest on a stock FI 2.0L? Not a whole bunch of options out there.
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Glenn
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aeromech
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: New Points - Install issue |
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Bill is great at customer service. I’d contact him and see what he says. Vented point’s? Never heard of that before.
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