Valve guides?

[Aviacs]

Starting to cut metal for the angle plate-
any resources for a blueprint where the head studs are "supposed" to be?

See my post above about how ambiguous the locations are from measuring the 2 existing heads.

Thanks for the updated tips on removing the guides.

Also got a piece of good news last night!
At my age, many of my friends are older, and been retired longer. I thought my engine shop guru was avoiding me after we traded a few emails, ever more non-committal on his end. last night came an email with enthusiasm for the project, so i won't have to worry about honing the guides or re-facing the seats myself.

Thanks!
smt

[nsracing]

We are at this guide-removals again? Please do not make post my pics all over again. I must have posted them several hundredth times already.

Somebody will just have to dig them up -

[modok]

I would advise NOT to drill holes in your sine plate.

[Aviacs]

[modok]

Nice. Just my opinion on it. I'll take a few pics too to show why I think that.

[Aviacs]

Reread your post.
Originally took it to mean "don't be drilling holes in your gages" like magnetic sine chucks and plates as a joking friendly admonition.

With your follow up note now i'm not so sure.
Are you referring to the angle plate that i'm making, as a sine plate?
How would it be used without some dowels (or a ledge) and threaded retention holes for bolting down the head when preferred? It could still float when that was more convenient. But it seems easier to bolt the head on, and float the entire fixture from machine to machine?

I might well be missing something here, or maybe we are designing different tools together separately....

I do appreciate the input.

smt

[RWK]

I have a flat ground plate, (steel) then made 9.5 degree angled wedges ground to correct angle then bolted them to the plate. My sine plate is hardend and ground, so you cant drill holes, nor would you want to.
Cyl. spacing I use is 4.410 between them, bolt hole is Y1.504 x X1.590
_________________
73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[modok]

Don't worry about it.
If it's a VW specific fixture that only does a specific job then nothing wrong with that.
Next year find yourself doing a valve job on a different airplane engine you might start to think different, then we can brainstorm.

[Aviacs]

OK.
My first impression of the message was correct?
Was starting to think there was something i was missing, because keep in mind, VW is totally new to me. I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand the various messages.

I probably take the other approach. For instance there are at least 5 sine fixtures for flat work, and more for rotary here. But i (usually) only use them for making other fixtures and tools, so they don't get messed up in the process of a routine task. My grind shop is a wet cellar with a creek that runs through it, so everything that matters to me is kept elsewhere, and/or under heavy coats of LPS, and maybe then under plastic, too. So it's a major chore to get it out, clean, use, put away again. Also, the big stuff weighs a lot. Even a steel fixture is more portable

Working fixtures i want to grab, go, and be able to refresh on the gage tools at such time as they are sufficiently degraded. Sometimes after trying it, the task suggests drilling a few extra holes, too. I seem to never think of all the eventualities when originally planning a fixture. They evolve. & get repurposed.

I did consider just making a steel plate for one of the larger sine chucks, since they don't hold aluminum well. But it all just seemed a nuisance over making a hard tool. & heavy.

smt

[modok]

Sorry don't need to just SIDE track your thinking process.
but it is possible a general purpose sine plate for a milling machine might be more useful to you than a specific fixture.
If it adjusted from 5 degrees to 15 for example I can think of several things I could have done with that.

[nsracing]

This is so painful above for me to read - so I will just post mine to ease you-all's pains.

Many heads will have variances on distances of holes and things. So -if you are going to make a jig - best make it so it can accomodate anything.

Here is mine - I machined it from 1-inch plate mild steel. This I am proud to say -accurate to 1/1000" in its entire length. It can rotate to any angle-of-the-dangle. So finding the proper angle for guides is not a big deal.

Enjoy -

[nsracing]

Here is the index pin - to accomodate for Type I or Type IV heads

[modok]

I have to hand it to you NSR that's a REALLy good one.

We'll end up taking him INTO building a rollover fixture, um, so, I better go do something else before we go to hell for it.

What....
Why need an index pin?
Put a pilot in the hole and use a level on the pilot. Takes no time at all.
machine isn't leveled?

[nsracing]

I sold this entire rig many years ago including the mill - it is somewhere in KY.

I am machining a way cooler and bigger one to do V8 heads too. This time - I will surface-grind the finish. I need at least a 28-inch surface grinder for this project.

I love making jigs for repetitive work. YOu should see my jig for building M14 rifles.

[nsracing]

The 'index-pin' will allow quick roughing the guides to the proper upright angle. Otherwise - you will spend all damn day finding upright zero angle.

If I am moving holes, I indicate the holes to the correct angle from the factory. Then machine and ream at that angle.

If I am just removing guides, it does not need to be that perfect. So long as you are as centered as possible. I use an old 8mm valve stem to center the guide for coring.

Just loosen the jig from the table, wiggle the head to the centering pin, and lock the jig angle and lock the hold-downs on the table.

It is kind of moron-proof as we say in the military.

[modok]

I'm sure your doing good work.
We can all have a laugh over this angle plate.
If I ever get a desoto head to work on, maybe the holes will line up.
I put the slots in it.

[nsracing]

I used this jig above too for doing big-valve seats conversions back in the day. Although I did not hammer shit on it while on the table like some V8 setups.

That would have required another entirely different machine to be able to hammer stuff while it is still mounted on the table.

[modok]

Fine with me.
I have a separate fixture for pressing/hammering in the seats, it's just welded up from junk and angle iron, nothing fancy about it.

[Aviacs]

Love all the great ideas!
This is phenomenal

Maybe? i figured out the photos.....
testing....

No need for a universal fixture for me, because at age 69, i'm not going into the head business. I have made fixtures for other airplane engines. And some of my (factory/commercial) sine fixtures or rotary tables could be contrived to take jugs on an angle plate.

OTOH, airplanes are easy - "many" valve jobs are done without even pulling the cylinders. However, if they need guides or seats, the whole thing comes off and sent to a facility that is legal to do the machine work. Zyglo and other inspection, re-welding the head, re-chroming the barrel, etc, etc.

There's some really ingenious stuff on this site and it is downright inspiring.

Now i have to drill & tap holes in this fixture, to mount the VW heads.

RWK - thanks for this benchmark:

[nsracing]

With them machines you got on hand, I say you are home free -

I used to come up to Long Island to pick up machines - was heavenly trip for me. So many damn machines up there. Every garage has some big ass machines in them.

You will find that the aircooled VW is very much a watch-winder like them aircraft engines. Just sad that people in the hobby treat them more like lawnmowers.