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40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:11 pm    Post subject: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

Hello,

I know this topic has been talked a-lot about. I have read through almost every thread on the topic. This leads me to a couple questions and advice.

After recently having some motor issues in my 61 double door I am ready to go all in and build the motor for the long haul.

The bus is a camper so pushing a bit of weight. But nothing exceptional.

Speed is not an issue. My boxes to check are reliability, fuel economy and correct look.

So my initial plan was run a 1600sp and dress it up as close as I can to a stale air 40hp. And run a 30 pict, 40hp dizzy and stock 1600 exhaust.

After thinking about all that would go into getting a "stock looking 1600". it occurred to go 40hp.

I am really looking for some advice of people that have a lot of miles behind both platforms.

I have driven a ton of miles on 1600sp platform and have been very satisfied with the performance. Would 40hp be a huge step down?

My bug has a 40hp and has been the most reliable engine I have ever had. Plus I get 32mpg. But thats in a bug...

I only have one 40hp bus and it runs like a top and is plenty fast for me. But its an empty panel not a built camper.

Any advice welcomed. If this topic has been beat to much. Feel free admins to delete my post Smile
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Tizian
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

I would opt for the 1600sp.

In my opinion there is no better stock looking engine than this one plus you have the doghouse cooling shroud.

When it comes to more weight, you'll be happy with every extra hp. Especially when driving in mountain regions.

I built one myself from an industrial engine and I am pretty happy with it.

Looks pretty much stock (edit: on my 67):


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I get something like 25 mpg currently. But I believe I can still improve a bit.
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Last edited by Tizian on Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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RWK
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:17 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

Most people that will look at your engine have no clue what size it is, if you want to make it look like a 40, ask yourself what it is that sets the two apart.
I would want the 1600, but the 40 hp pushed a lot of buses around for a long time
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Lind
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:06 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

I got into 40hp bus engines for the cheap mufflers. The engines are pretty cheap too, but that is for used engines. I would guess that building a new one is about the same cost as a 1600.

Most of the time, you are using 40hp or less to push your bus. If you run a 40hp engine, everything else needs to be stock, gearing, tire size, etc.

I drove my 40hp bus 800 miles last weekend with a full load of swap stuff. With the headwind, roof rack and extra engine on the way out, I was cruising at 50mph. With the tailwind and having unloaded the rack and engine, I was cruising back home at 65mph. Of course hills slow me down.

You can also compromise by going bigbore 40hp.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

At one time a picked up a 59 truck with a blown engine, and acquired a running 40hp, so I put them together. The truck had little nut boxes, and pulled hills really really well, but screamed above 55 mph. It also got 28 mpg! I was pretty happy with it. Gas cost less then, FWIW.

If you have a stock 61 tranny, a 40hp works well.

Generally I've buildt a 1600sp with doghouse.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

Stroke it! Razz

A mild stroker can be made to ďlookĒ like a 40 horser quite easily. Better torque for a camper bus. Itís not about going fast, itís about pulling the weight with ease. A 74 to 76 millimeter crank will require minimal to no clearance in a stock case. Good luck with your project. Cool
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

jacobcallaghan wrote:

Speed is not an issue. My boxes to check are reliability, fuel economy and correct look.


Then build a 40 HP with big bore pistons and cylinders, and run it (at the most) 3,000 RPM for cruising along.

Add on:

1. Doghouse cooling system, with DH crank pulley and DH wider cooling fan.

2. Modify the doghouse fan shroud, hoover bit, and exhaust shell to fit int e 40% bigger type 4 oil cooler.

3. Claude's Buggies Maxi 2 oil filter pump.

4. If you drive in Southern climates in the Summer heat you may need the 356 Porsche generator pulley for higher cooling fan RPM.

5. Optional, have the crankshaft counter weighted.
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Walk Thru KO
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:

Then build a 40 HP with big bore pistons and cylinders, .....


May I ask what brand and country of manufacture are 40 HP big bore p/c currently now available?
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BulliBill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

Since you are asking for our opinions, here is mine. I bought a gorgeous old weathered original SWR paint June of 1959 Double-Door Panel Bus in storage in a north Texas barn from a buddy back in 2000, complete except for a rear bumper and the original "Bastard" 40hp engine. But I had a used normal 1961-ish 40hp engine complete in my garage storage that was reputed to run when the Bus it was in was parted out by friends. It ended up being a marriage made in heaven! I had the rear bumper too.

I never thought once about any powerplant in that stock Panel but an original 40hp engine, and I even had a couple of good 1600 engines lying about in storage too. Nope! Not for me. The original "Bastard" engines were recalled by VW after a couple of years and lots of folks received a slightly later "normal" 40hp engine, or some had their "Bastard" engine modified/updated by their VW dealer to be reliable. So the 1961 40hp engine that I already had in house was about perfect in timeline to be in place to power my Panel.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After a thorough clean-up (NOT a rebuild!) and new tune-up items and fuel lines the engine fired right up and purred like a contented kitten. Into the Bus she went, and has been getting me around rather nicely for the past 22 years and has never let me down yet. But I drive it like the period 63 year old vehicle that it is, I keep my top cruising speed as mentioned in the owners manual to 50 or so mph. I take over and I own the right lane and all the other assholes and speed freaks on the road can pass me on the way to their accidents. I slap my "SLOW MOVING VEHICLE" magnet on my rear hatch and no one so far has been pissy with me, usually I get a lot of "thumbs up" from those who pass me.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Simply put, my stock Panel Bus seems very happy if driven as designed, and could probably be driven a bit harder, but why?

I have a '67 Westy SO-42 with a 1600 stock-ish engine if I want to go a little faster on the highway, an '87 Westy with a 90hp stock engine if I want to go even faster, and a '59 Double-Cab with a totally stock 36hp engine too. I like and vote for a well-built stock engine and drive it as it was designed to be driven. They are pretty damn reliable that way.

Now talk amongst yourselves!

Bill Bowman
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

Walk Thru KO wrote:
Eric&Barb wrote:

Then build a 40 HP with big bore pistons and cylinders, .....


May I ask what brand and country of manufacture are 40 HP big bore p/c currently now available?


Have no idea about that. We collected up all sort of P&Cs back when they were out at the swap meets regularly for $100 (or less) in new, slightly used (honing marks still visible), or NOS. There are a lot of older ACVW collectors that have good parts on the shelf out there. Put up "WTB" adverts and see what pops up in the Thesamba classifieds, Craigslist, Marketplace, etc.....

About eight years ago late one afternoon, I turned down a back road that personally I had never took before chasing after a random "Garage Sale" sign. Pulled up to a very senior looking fellow sitting out in the sun amongst all the stuff he had for sale. No one else was about, and as I stepped out of our 1960 walk thru panel camper conversion the fellow called out "I have been waiting for you all day!". Ended up he had a NOS set of slip in 88mm P&Cs from EMPI way back in the 1970s or 1980s. Bought them for $30.00, which was his asking price.

I do see that WW has the stock 77mm 40HP pistons and cylinders with "BR" at the end of the part number. "BR" should mean Brazil. On the other hand the big bore 83mm 40HP pistons and cylinder show a "BB" at the end of the part number. Do call them up and inquire. Would be interested in what you find.

There is one other way to go for a sleeper 40HP engine and that would be to install CW 1500/1600cc 69mm crankshaft. Then either 77 or 83mm P&Cs. It does take more time measuring and having parts machined to get it all to fit right. Did one project 40HP engine with 69mm CW crank decades ago. Had to have the 40HP rods narrowed on the crank end to fit the later crankshaft. If memory is correct, cut off .025" off of each piston top and added a .060" shim under each cylinder against the engine case to keep the compression low enough. Probably too low of compression. The kicker was that the stock 40HP exhaust still fitted right on. That engine is still on the shelf waiting for enough time to get to that dream project.
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BarryL Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

jacobcallaghan wrote:
The bus is a camper so pushing a bit of weight. But nothing exceptional.

I only have one 40hp bus and it runs like a top and is plenty fast for me. But its an empty panel not a built camper.


This is an answer.
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galexander
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

This is what I am running in Jerry the Bus, a very mild 1776.
It runs cool, smooth and all day long across Texas and into New Mexico, Arkansas and Colorado.

After chasing my tail for many years, this seems to be the absolute perfect set up for a loaded down Camper with full rack and gear.

Gary

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Stock Bus Exhaust, stock Heat exchangers
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1804 1804 Main Bearings STD
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1880 1880 Camshaft Bearing Set - fits 40hp-1600cc
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1727 1727 Oil Cooler - fits '71-on Type-1 & 2
1791 1791 Maxi Pump 2 - w/Filter Mount (up to '70)
1973 1973 Gasket Set - 13, 15, & 1600cc Dual & Single Port Engines
1941 1941 Rear Main Seal - 13, 15, & 1600cc
1569 1569 Push Rod Tubes (Unplated) - fits 13-1600cc engines
1436 1436 Stock Camshaft - to fit 40hp, 13-1600cc
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

thank you for all the responses. I really appreciate the feedback. I think I will build a 1600sp.

I have an almost new dual relief aluminum case laying around in the shop. Might just assemble up from there with new crank, pistons, heads, ect...

Thanks again samba for all the advice.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

@galexander Stock exhaust on a 1776? I'm considering removing my Vintage Speed for a stock unit. I'm also running a mild 1776 in my camper. Was always told not too..
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

Heyo,

So the 1600 sp that was in my bus pulled the head studs out sadly. It was a random old rebuilt motor i got from a buddy.

So I put an old 40hp from my 62 in the bus. (putting a 1641 DP in that bus) Motor ran great for about 300-400 miles and then seized on my way to Utah. lol. I knew the bottom end was tired but rolled the dice and lost.

Anyways I am now ready to pull the trigger on ordering and building the engine to go the distance. Thoughts on this set up? Most of it comes from the CB website. From my reading they seem pretty trust worthy.

CASE: I have a good used dual relief aluminum case. Looks pretty much new.
CAM: I was thinking a CB performance stock cam? Or should i go for a mild performance cam? Like engel 90? or 100? New lifters to mach as well. https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1436.htm?CartID=8
PISTONS: I was thinking the mahle 85.5s
CRANK: Forged Chromoly https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1105.htm?CartID=2
RODS:CB Perfomance Stock Rods
OILPUMP: New from CB
HEADS: Now I was thinking of running some good used heads with new valves and springs. There appears to be no single port heads in stock anywhere?
CARB: 30 pict 1
EXAUHST: Stock
OIL COOLER:New Dog House

How does this setup sound? Really looking for reliability and fuel economy. Not speed. When I was driving my bus with the 40hp I was cruising at 50mph and happy as a clam!

Thanks for all the help!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

jacobcallaghan wrote:

CRANK: Forged Chromoly https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1105.htm?CartID=2


Might as well go up to a 74 or 76mm stroke for more torque.

Unless you are going with bigger carb/s, bigger muffler, and bigger valves, a performance cam is a waste of $$. Better to just go with stock or very close to it camshaft for most torque which is a must for the bus.
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Bonesberg55
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

I had a 23 window Samba with a 40hp back in the mid-70s. MPG was about 25 but top speed was only 62 MPH and that was downhill. That same engine rebuilt and installed in a '65 Beetle netted me 34 MPG. That's quite a difference. I had a 1600 SP in a '79 Beetle and only got high 20s MPG. I do think the 40hp was a good motor.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:39 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

Did some adjustments on carb and timing. Now I get 29 mpg with my 1600sp in my 67 deluxe. ThatĎs not too bad in my opinionÖ
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EJZero1
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

Bonesberg55 wrote:
I had a 23 window Samba with a 40hp back in the mid-70s. MPG was about 25 but top speed was only 62 MPH and that was downhill. That same engine rebuilt and installed in a '65 Beetle netted me 34 MPG. That's quite a difference. I had a 1600 SP in a '79 Beetle and only got high 20s MPG. I do think the 40hp was a good motor.

What trans were you running in your 23 window? Iím running a 40hp in my Ď60 Kombi with a small nut, and not sure if I could get to 62 mph without something coming apart. Still getting used to driving it though (my first bus) so maybe itís got more to give than Iím asking of it. Just been driving around town so far, and have only got up to the mid 40ís mph. Need to get used to engine sound vs. speed.
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Bonesberg55
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 40hp vs 1600sp stock look and reliable Reply with quote

EJZero1 wrote:
Bonesberg55 wrote:
I had a 23 window Samba with a 40hp back in the mid-70s. MPG was about 25 but top speed was only 62 MPH and that was downhill. That same engine rebuilt and installed in a '65 Beetle netted me 34 MPG. That's quite a difference. I had a 1600 SP in a '79 Beetle and only got high 20s MPG. I do think the 40hp was a good motor.

What trans were you running in your 23 window? Iím running a 40hp in my Ď60 Kombi with a small nut, and not sure if I could get to 62 mph without something coming apart. Still getting used to driving it though (my first bus) so maybe itís got more to give than Iím asking of it. Just been driving around town so far, and have only got up to the mid 40ís mph. Need to get used to engine sound vs. speed.


The trans was whatever came stock with the 1500 motor for 1963 which was the first year for the 1500 in the bus. I haven't had that 23 window for over 45 years.
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