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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1163 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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Multi69s wrote: |
^^^ X2
From they looks of it the engine was running and the cam somehow locked up, and the stored energy of the crank and flywheel kept the crank spinning. |
Exactly what I was thinking. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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Whoa. That would do it. I wonder if the cam gear sat in a case exposed to the elements, and the gear rotted at the bottom or something. Then resued in this engline.
I'd what would jamb a cam except a pushrod coming out of the rocker cup, and jamming on something. But the pushrods usually just bend like noodles.
Well OP, you definitely found the problem. Sucks it ended up being a total tear down. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31380 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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NachoCar wrote: |
Perhaps the issue
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Wow - I've never seen or even heard of that happening before !!! _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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Cusser wrote: |
NachoCar wrote: |
Perhaps the issue
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Wow - I've never seen or even heard of that happening before !!! |
Actually, as i look at that again, the middle cam bearing is double stacked. Was it like that when you opened the case? I've only seen rod bearings do that! |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1163 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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Pruneman99 wrote: |
Cusser wrote: |
NachoCar wrote: |
Perhaps the issue
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Wow - I've never seen or even heard of that happening before !!! |
Actually, as i look at that again, the middle cam bearing is double stacked. Was it like that when you opened the case? I've only seen rod bearings do that! |
I saw that too, except in pic#3, it shows the the bearing half sitting on top of the cam. I think in pic#1 it is just a reflection of the backside. I compared the two pics many times, in pic #1, the cam lobe is hiding the edge of the upper bearing shell. Don't think it was water damage either, sump looks fine and no gray paste.
My guess is that the valve train jammed somehow. Anything unusual with the lifters? Do they all move in their bores? _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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Ah you might be right. Just a reflection. Pictures can be deceiving.
I guess a lifter could have got jammed up somehow? Something had to have stopped that cam in a hurry. I've seen lifter bores blown out, but not the teeth ripped off like that. |
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goober Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2003 Posts: 1183
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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Just a guess.
By the nicks on the brass distributor drive gear someone may have at one time put the shims on the drive and drove it home past the gear.
Did you remove the distributor drive before this happened?
Did you find any bent or crushed metal in the case? |
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NachoCar Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2013 Posts: 323 Location: Ms
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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My guess is that the valve train jammed somehow. Anything unusual with the lifters? Do they all move in their bores?[/quote]
The lifters seemed smooth as butter?!? |
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NachoCar Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2013 Posts: 323 Location: Ms
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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goober wrote: |
Just a guess.
By the nicks on the brass distributor drive gear someone may have at one time put the shims on the drive and drove it home past the gear.
Did you remove the distributor drive before this happened?
Did you find any bent or crushed metal in the case? |
The po had the bottom end built when I got it.
I did not remove dist drive gear.
I have not yet found ALL the teeth that were sheared off. Found a couple and the bits in the pics above.
Last edited by NachoCar on Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NachoCar Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2013 Posts: 323 Location: Ms
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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will a standard old engine rebuilder shop be able to tell if case is savable?
I can't imagine ensuring all the oil passages ar clear would be easy.
I really have no idea what to even ask them to do or inspect. Guidance would be great!!
Thanks,
George |
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tzepesh Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2003 Posts: 735 Location: Romania
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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You can ask to remove all engine case plugs, clean the passages very well, thread and plug with NPT plugs. I did it myself, you just need the taps and plugs. _________________ '74 1303S, L98B Viperngrun (extra glitter), German Look
'64 1200, Sea Blue, under restoration |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9969 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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I would clean the case as good as you can. Simple Green and a good stiff brush work magically! Clean the crank and the old bearings too. Once all clean, rinsed and dry, reassemble the crank in the case and see if it will spin easily. If it does, send the case out to be inspected. If it does not, send the case and crank. _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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NachoCar Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2013 Posts: 323 Location: Ms
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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Thanks Jimbo and everyone
thought I'd make the best of the situation and upgrade to CB performance's 2280 grind 'Cheater' cam, but out of stock till next year......damn supply chain issues. |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15987 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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Did you find any "metal sand" in the oil pump before you removed it? This would be an indication it had pumped metal particles into the oil passages? If the pump/gears was still clean then the case may be cleaned and reused. May the silver lining is that the cam drives the oil pump. Since the cam gear was destroyed the cam would have immediately stopped rotating and in turn the oil pump would have stopped too. The crank would have continued to rotate for a bit with zero oil pressure but the oil pump would have stopped drawing oil from the bottom of the crankcase. The only question is if the cam started to come apart before it came to a halt.
Extra effort needs to be paid towards cleaning out all case passages if you plan to reuse it. Find a well known machine shop or engine builder that has experience with ACVWs. They can clean and inspect the case and let you know if it appears rebuildable. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34022 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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Curious if there is any evidence pointing to a root cause. Lifters stuck? Pushrods bent weird? |
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NachoCar Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2013 Posts: 323 Location: Ms
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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No grit/metal sand in oil pump!!!
Lifters were smooth. I'll inspect the pushrods more carefully as they weren't my main focus during disassembly.
Finding a machine shop familiar with acvw's has not happened yet and doesn't look to happen within driving distance. Afraid I'm going to have to take a chance with local shop.
Last edited by NachoCar on Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1477 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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I remember seeing this YEARS ago...if memory serves (probably not) something got in the case and jammed the cam gear while running. |
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NJ John Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2007 Posts: 2224 Location: HdG, MD & NJ
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:18 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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If it’s all clean and your feeling lucky, fix it. What’s the worse that could happen? You’ll spend a few bucks on necessary parts. _________________ 1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
11.41 et buggy. Long gone
Let’s go O’s! Let’s go O’s!
https://www.youtube.com/@AirSpooledGarage |
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NachoCar Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2013 Posts: 323 Location: Ms
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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Just balancing $3K on a mofoco short block vs cam, cam gear, bearings and machine work. Made a contact on here who gave me a list of names to contact in Memphis with acvw experience. (Thanks Robert!!!)
Seems like it be about a $1000 gamble vs new/reworked short block with 12 month warranty.
I'll make that call after machine shop does inspection, hopefully before a $500 bill. |
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NachoCar Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2013 Posts: 323 Location: Ms
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Pushrods/valves SEEM to have stopped moving |
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barley worth mentioning as an update....but after the machine shop never got around to my mere VW case after a couple MONTHS, I picked everything up last Thursday. They did manage to polish the crank nicely.
Thanks to a great new Sambaista buddy who let me come over to his house and watched him measure, tap, and re-remeasure.... I now have new bearings.
Newest issue to stress about is drilling perpendicular to the case for a 14 mm od case saver. I don't have a drill press. Got the idea to use a spare cylinder/jug as a guide. After a usable attempt, assembly begins Saturday. |
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