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72vwtype2
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2006
Posts: 211
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:20 am Post subject: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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This internal distributor part on my stock 1.7L distribution in my 72 van. Has now broken twice. Any idea what the issue is?
Thanks. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76948
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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It's spring steel, i've never seen one break and i've seen hundreds.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51156
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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| 72vwtype2 wrote: |
| ........Has now broken twice.......... |
That same part each time? 
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72vwtype2
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2006
Posts: 211
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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| Yup. The same part twice. Needless to say “it don’t run” when that piece breaks!!! |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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Strange. I have never seen one fail, let alone two. The two plates slide past each other and there should be no up down motion on that spring steel. Are these original breaker plates you are replacing? Are they reproductions or original? I borrowed this photo from the Samba Gallery. It hows the full plate and spring.
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72vwtype2
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2006
Posts: 211
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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Looks original to me….
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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maybe they were over tensioned? Normally as the ball bearing rolls it wears a divot into the plate. That works the spring up and down as the ball moves up and down in the divot. I am just guessing that if it was over tensioned it might cause fatigue. At this point you might look for a spare plate assembly. They used to be available new.
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3899
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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New points plate (svda dist) is VW part # is 311-905-227C.
Website vwnos.com says they have it ($71.50).
Same guy also seems to sell the same parts at website vwtex.com.
The ball spring/retainer I've seen are a different design from the one shown above,
the spring just snaps onto the edge of the plate and is held on by friction.
Maybe the one above is aftermarket?
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3899
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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That ball bearing looks awfully big to me. I'd wager someone put an over-size ball in there, thus stressing the keeper spring.
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Reverand Hope
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2020
Posts: 19
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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Can't help with the spring, but judging by your palm you're going to meet a tall, dark stranger and live a long and happy life 
best explanation so far would be the oversized ball bearing theory, but if you've had two go in succession it begs a question. I'll bet you could modify a spire clip to do the same job... |
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72vwtype2
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2006
Posts: 211
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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Thanks everyone for there comments/suggestions. To answer the last couple of comments. The ball bearings were both the same size. The second one I used came from my spare 205 E distributor (that used to work).
Can't speak about the ball bearing movement of the first bearing. But after installing the second bracket/bearing I did check to ensure the bearing was free to move.
I believe there is some upward pressure being placed on the plate. I am going to need to take it apart and see what's happening? Fun times owning these vehicles 😊 |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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Pull the whole distributor up and out and see how the washers look down bore
Pull up with magnet. Install with a messenger rod
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6622
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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It is rare for these to break but as with anything mechanical it does happen. The main reason is incorrect tension is applied. Bosch created a special kit for this. Picture from Frederik.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| maybe they were over tensioned? Normally as the ball bearing rolls it wears a divot into the plate. That works the spring up and down as the ball moves up and down in the divot. I am just guessing that if it was over tensioned it might cause fatigue. At this point you might look for a spare plate assembly. They used to be available new. |
SGKENT for the win!
Actually in answer to Glenn I have seen MANY of them break.
They break for two reasons:
1. It's spring steel. If it gets rust spots those become stress risers and it cracks where it rusts. This is most especially common if the rust is on the bend joint right below the hole.
2. And added with what SGKent noted....there gets to be a wear "divot" under the ball in the rotating plate.
If you measure the depth of that divot...it's very commonly ~0.015" to as much as 0.025" deep (just those I have measured). That causes there to be less tension on the spring.
So eventually an owner cleans and greases his distributor and re-tightens that spring and screw. As long as the ball stays centered in the divot, this is not an issue. But as the vacuum advance rotates the plate...depending on how well the spring cup is centered....that balls is rolled out of the divot during advance....onto a flat non divot area....which means that now the spring cup is over tensioned. It fatigues and cracks.
So the "root cause" is over tensioning. These can crack even when there is no divot....if you push that spring down too hard. Long ago before I knew.....I cracked several like this by over compressing the spring.
The reason why I cinched down harder was because I was trying to get rid of noticeable slack in the plates.
Later with more careful inspection I realized that the wear was in several other places in the plates.
You can see a write up on what to look for here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=686352&highlight=advance+plates
By the way....if you look carefully under magnification....you will find that it's not really the friction of the ball moving under spring pressure that wears the divot in the breaker plate.
Yes there is a small amount of wear from the ball.....but what is causing the huge divot is corrosion.
The breaker plates are NICKEL PLATED. Nickel and nickel plate itself.....is Rust proof. However it is NOT a sacrificial anode like zinc plating. Once a small amount of wear breaks through or cracks nickel plating.....and any corrosion of the ferrous metal itself starts.....it corrode into a cavity underneath the nickel plating at a very high rate.
What usually starts the corrosion on these parts is the use of metallic based grease.....like lithium hydroxy, calcium based greases.....pretty much wheel bearing grease.....AND....leaving it there for years. The metals in the grease oxidize with moisture causing accelerated corrosion.
This is why VW/Bosch and everyone else.....uses a special silicone based grease for all distributor greasing.
Ray |
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1248
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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This looks worse than it really is as it's more like a crater, pushed up at the edges. Once I filed it flat you could barley see it. 
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76948
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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Nice divot
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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 ....I was thinking the same thing! Damn near perfect divot!
But that is actually the type of divot that corrosion causes from just sitting still. Either it had no working vacuum advance or was sitting unused corroding for years in one place.
Also to clarify...yes. You are correct that these spring cups or whatever the real name is...do not break....by themselves. They are simple and bulletproof.
I have seen enough of them break but not by their own doing. They are either over tightened...or can even crack when greatly overtightening the screw or they rust. Ray |
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1248
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:50 am Post subject: Re: Weird Distributor Issue? |
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| It came from an engine that had been a spare for at least 3 people, moved from shed to shed then sold on as the owners sold their buses. The engine was i great condition and most was used to build my 2.4L. The guy I got it from had it 10 years, the guy before 7 years and then the trail went cold. So yes it had sat around for a long time. The vac advance works fine. |
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