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Jon65
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Roll Cage Opinion Reply with quote

I was thinking today about a question that I have had for years. So, I thought I'd ask you guys for your opinions.

If you had the option to install a simple 4-point bolt-in roll cage kit in a mid-60s beetle that had a mild motor in it and was daily driven, would you do it? This is looking at the viewpoint of the added strength and rigidness that the roll cage would give the car that might be a good thing to have for a daily driver.

So, what are your guys opinion/thoughts? And it doesn't matter if its good or bad. I was just wondering what you guys could say on the topic. Would it be worth it or a waste of time?

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jensend
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: rollbar in a daily driver Reply with quote

The use of a roll bar or cage in a daily driven car is unsafe and a dangerous practice. Even with correct padding, a roll bar places a potentially deadly obstacle near to the driver's and occupants' heads. Even padded, the steel is likely to cause serious or fatal injury in a collision or crash.

More modern cars use a full compliment of air bags to protect occupants from contact with the interior even though most interior surfaces are thoroughly padded. Placing a rigid metal brace (padded or not) inside a daily driven car adds to risk: it doesn't reduce it. Race cars have dedicated race seating and harnesses to keep helmeted occupants secured and with minimal movement during an impact. Even so, some injuries still are attributed to contact with roll bars/cages.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolting them together can be dangerous. I would weld it all together. Unless your into the 13's in the 1/4 mile adding a roll bar is pretty much usless extra weight. If your just courious you should look at an SCCA, SCORE, or NHRA rule book to see what is required. If you do choose to install one I would build it to racing specs.
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Jon65
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: rollbar in a daily driver Reply with quote

jensend wrote:
The use of a roll bar or cage in a daily driven car is unsafe and a dangerous practice. Even with correct padding, a roll bar places a potentially deadly obstacle near to the driver's and occupants' heads. Even padded, the steel is likely to cause serious or fatal injury in a collision or crash.

More modern cars use a full compliment of air bags to protect occupants from contact with the interior even though most interior surfaces are thoroughly padded. Placing a rigid metal brace (padded or not) inside a daily driven car adds to risk: it doesn't reduce it. Race cars have dedicated race seating and harnesses to keep helmeted occupants secured and with minimal movement during an impact. Even so, some injuries still are attributed to contact with roll bars/cages.


I understand where you're coming from. Thanks for your comments. I was just wondering because I remember seeing a car with a setup like I have described with a roll bar. I was curious as to what advantages one would give to a daily driver. I suppose I looked at this the wrong way. Think
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Jon65
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
Bolting them together can be dangerous. I would weld it all together. Unless your into the 13's in the 1/4 mile adding a roll bar is pretty much usless extra weight. If your just courious you should look at an SCCA, SCORE, or NHRA rule book to see what is required. If you do choose to install one I would build it to racing specs.


And equally I see where you are. My original reason for posting was pertaining to daily driving purposes instead of racing purposes. However, I will look at those rulebooks that you listed out of curiosity anyway. Thanks for your opinion.
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drscope
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you talking roll cage or roll bar? They aren't the same!

vwracerdave points out a few very important things!

One reason to look at race rule books is because those cages are built to withstand a serious impact. And there has been a lot of engineering and thought that has gone into making them strong as well as functional.

Pay close attention to materials, wall thickness, diameters, triangulation (without triangulation you don't have any protection), mounting points and mounting techniques.

An improperly designed cage will simply add weight to the car and it won't stand up to an impact. So you may find yourself squshed inside your cool looking cage if it ever got tested.

And it needs to be fitted so it mounts to something strong. The strongest cage in the world won't help you if the legs go through the floor when the car ends up on its roof!

I would also stay away from just about all the commercially available bars for the VW. Many of them could be just as useful if they were made from PVC pipe.

AutoPower makes a really decent product that is well designed and fits well, but you will probably need to beef up the floor and wheel wheels a bit where it mounts.
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Jon65
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I was refering to a roll cage.

Yes, I understand what you mean. I know that the cage must be properly built with the strongest materials and measures, as well as being fitted to a a stronger floor pan.

Everything you have said makes perfect sense to me. Thank you.
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longboard511
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its not just the cage and materials of it its the way you would mount it to the car
the bug i just bought had a cage that was bolted to the floor behind the seats and above the gearbox if the car had gone over the cage would have punched through the floor and most prob have killed anyone inside as it would have gone straight onto there heads

proper reinforcing of the mount points to the car and welding to the car is the only way to know you have a safe cage that will not do more damage than without unless its a race car i would not bother
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

they look way kool!!!, if you tie it in the correct places you can save your body,wish I had done it to mine when I first built it. as far as being dangerious ,hmm there is plenty of stuff already that can & will hurt you.My brother and I (hey look at that) were in his 62 giha when he rolled it.if he hadnt put a cage in it we both would of probably been dead, as it was he was AFU pretty bad.me not so much just scrapes.he was on the side that went over and slamed down I pretty much just pivoted.it was also a vert.not a pretty sight.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Driving a uncaged classic vw on the street is like running. Reply with quote

(continued from subject line) with scissors.


I don't believe that a classic beetles roof is the problem. It's the frontend and the sides.There are some extreme cage jobs on the internet but it can be done in a practicle way. Run a bar across the bottom front of the passenger compartment behind the pedels from right to left as sitting in the car. Run another pipe at an angle that follows the innerfender and then connects to the door post. Like this http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7102/7028273175_859373313c_b.jpg


Run another pipe that goes low from the front door post then gets higher to around hip height at the front seats as it goes to the rear of the car. Connect this to the other side of the car with a piece that the rear seat rests on.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are somany ways to skin a cat and cage a car (hopefuly not at the same time, you might get catscratch feever in the bug)if you buy a kit you got what you got.we have been building cars&cages,chassies for 30+years,it's not all that hard, but if youve never done it's not all that easy.some guys ust stick bars anywhere with no thought about fit or function.if your good you cant tell there is a cage&frame in the car.yes they can be hid and many "class"cars do have totaly hidden tube frames.the vw is kinda neet you can put the outer rails where the heater chanels go and descize them, even split the heater ducking under the rear seat&install on the tubing looking just like the stock car does, if your good you can still have heat too.the cage dosent have to be hidden but out of the way is nice.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Driving a uncaged classic vw on the street is like runni Reply with quote

theKbStockpiler wrote:
(continued from subject line) with scissors.


I don't believe that a classic beetles roof is the problem. It's the frontend and the sides.There are some extreme cage jobs on the internet but it can be done in a practicle way. Run a bar across the bottom front of the passenger compartment behind the pedels from right to left as sitting in the car. Run another pipe at an angle that follows the innerfender and then connects to the door post. Like this http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7102/7028273175_859373313c_b.jpg


Run another pipe that goes low from the front door post then gets higher to around hip height at the front seats as it goes to the rear of the car. Connect this to the other side of the car with a piece that the rear seat rests on.


I hope all that stuff is somehow attached to the front beam. As you stated, front end impact is something that needs to be addressed. Look at front end crash pictures where the beam got pushed back or bent and see where the steering wheel now rests. Usually right about where your teeth or face would normally be.


Its not easy to put a functional cage in a street car and still have easy access in and out. The VW is already small and space is at a premium. When you start adding tubes (they are TUBES, not pipe) they usually need to go in areas that you don't really want taken up.

Its not a problem on a race car, but its a pain in the neck when you have to open the door to get the window handle to clear the cage in order to raise or lower the window.

I've also seen Show Room Stock cars where the cage was in the way of the sun visors. That makes the commute home driving into the sun a little uncomfortable.

And I saw a bug a few years ago where they did a nice job of putting the cage in, but found out latter they couldn't get the rear seat up enough to change the battery.

And you may find that once you installed functional door bars that would protect you in a crash, you now need a detatchable steering wheel in order to get in and out of the car.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I first put a 8 pt,cage in my street car about 30 years ago,no issues at all, but nowdays there is fatboy bars for us old guys&fat guys too.
if my bug wasent the only car I owned execpt for my roadster racecar I would pull it appart&cage it.it needs it, baddly. but with that said I dont even want a bug any more.356 time.or possiably 550
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Jon65
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving a uncaged classic vw on the street is like runni Reply with quote

drscope wrote:
theKbStockpiler wrote:
(continued from subject line) with scissors.


I don't believe that a classic beetles roof is the problem. It's the frontend and the sides.There are some extreme cage jobs on the internet but it can be done in a practicle way. Run a bar across the bottom front of the passenger compartment behind the pedels from right to left as sitting in the car. Run another pipe at an angle that follows the innerfender and then connects to the door post. Like this http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7102/7028273175_859373313c_b.jpg


Run another pipe that goes low from the front door post then gets higher to around hip height at the front seats as it goes to the rear of the car. Connect this to the other side of the car with a piece that the rear seat rests on.


I hope all that stuff is somehow attached to the front beam. As you stated, front end impact is something that needs to be addressed. Look at front end crash pictures where the beam got pushed back or bent and see where the steering wheel now rests. Usually right about where your teeth or face would normally be.


Its not easy to put a functional cage in a street car and still have easy access in and out. The VW is already small and space is at a premium. When you start adding tubes (they are TUBES, not pipe) they usually need to go in areas that you don't really want taken up.

Its not a problem on a race car, but its a pain in the neck when you have to open the door to get the window handle to clear the cage in order to raise or lower the window.

I've also seen Show Room Stock cars where the cage was in the way of the sun visors. That makes the commute home driving into the sun a little uncomfortable.

And I saw a bug a few years ago where they did a nice job of putting the cage in, but found out latter they couldn't get the rear seat up enough to change the battery.

And you may find that once you installed functional door bars that would protect you in a crash, you now need a detatchable steering wheel in order to get in and out of the car.


Yeah, I was thinking about it earlier and thought that the car might be uncomfortable with a cage in there. Even with the size of a bug, it would be even more uncomfortable. That does make sense.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's not that hard to do it where it dosent get in the way, you just have to find somebody that gives a shit&knows what there doing.or you can have what drscops was refering to.... or worse.
my wife had a mit montarow, the A pillers were sofricken wide I could of used 3"tubing and still not been in your line of sight.
there are swing out bars that will pass nhra cert,there are bars that fallow the seat conture, you can have a removeable back seat bar,it's all in the way it's done.there are somany varaitions.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see where a roll bar on a VW bug can come in handy.

I rolled my first bug off the freeway. My bicycle was behind the front seats and acted as an roll bar.

The impact bent the frame of the bike behind me. I hate
to think what would have happened if it hadn't been there.

I walked away with only bruises from the seat belts. Also a testament to
seat belt use.

That being said, I have no extra restraints in my current bug.

Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: The beam does not mater. Reply with quote

Everything up till the (cage material) is it 'a36 steal?' would act as a crumple zone. I have to think back to the 70s and 60s to the EMT and emergency room workers asking if the crippled and horrifyingly disfigured patient was driving a vw or not. I would rather be inconvenienced getting in and out of a car I really don't need than what the consequences could be. I personally want to drive a beetle in heavy traffic without being insane. Laughing Maybe a ghia is the better vw because they are wider and would hold the cage material with some room to spare?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The car hit me directly on the passenger door, RIGHT into the diagonal across the door. THe heaterchannel is 2x3 14 gauge, all is welded in.
Now, I have seen several other bugs t-boned that did NOT have a welded in cage, usually the b-pillar and door are pushed a foot into the car.

But take a moment to think about it, the reason it worked was the heavy duty heater channel. If it was a bolt in cage the tubes may have come loose and speared me. There's nothing solid to bolt them too! No thanks
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Opinion Reply with quote

What did you decide to do? I am researching the same question for a 67 I'm buying. more for an extra safety feature for crushing than anything. [/u]
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Opinion Reply with quote

AdventureKins wrote:
What did you decide to do? I am researching the same question for a 67 I'm buying. more for an extra safety feature for crushing than anything. [/u]

I have been driving these wind up toys legally for 42 years.
Illegally, for 52 years.
And never had a second thought on weather a roll bar system was necessary, for my on road safety.

You are way over thinking your chances of getting in a very catastrophic accident.

I rear-ended a VW Dasher in 1982 at 35mph. My fault, I admit it!
Never hit the brakes, before crushing my 67 into the back of that car.
I walked away, with a soar forehead and a minor cut on one of my fingers.
Point being, these cars are pretty solid.
Just be aware of the cars around you. And relax!

I drag race my 67 from time to time. So the need for a roll bar system, now becomes a concern. As I will be approaching over 100 mph, next season
At that speed, a roll bar system becomes a requirement for personal safety.

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