Heater channel & door fit

[Jhp212]

Hi all. Could use some help getting on the right track here. I am replacing the heater channels on my 71 super beetle. I don’t have the help ready as I need to lift the body on and off of the chassis or a mechanical lift etc etc to test and check fit so with a jack and jack stands I have a system to raise the chassis to the body on my horses. It has worked well as I had rebuilt both sides of the front bulkhead and nut boxes inside.

With the passenger heater channel bolted to the chassis I have raised it to the body this way a good number of times. I’m doing passenger side first and the rusted old drivers channel is still attached with exception to the front part I cut out to work the firewall. I've gotten all bolts (all 4 on firewall, both rear cross members, and all of the other bolts to body as well as the 2 pads on the rear) to line up. I do have a little trouble sometimes lining up the rear bolts.

With heater channel attached to chassis and all bolts secured (less drivers channel) I put the door on and it opened and closed fine. Once firewall was done I repaired the lower portion of the a pillar, reworked b pillar, removed right rear cross member, and started quarter panel. Tested all of this with the channel placed in with jacks and the door opens and closes fine. Then I tried raising the chassis to body as usual but something changed. The door doesn’t close and is off by a lot.

I’m trying to provide as many pictures and explanation as possible.

Once chassis is off and I put channel in place and everything appears to be where it should and the door opens and closes fine. All measurements check out with the stock photo that’s all over this site.

I’ve seen some weld up the channel with and some without the body bolted to chassis. I don't want to weld up the channel this way only to find once mated to the chassis it’s wrong. I’m not sure what changed the door opening.
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1971 Super Beetle

[MACJELLY58]

Nice work, first of all!!

You didn't mention if the the last fitting had the rubber square spacers installed. I did see that you have them on the saw horse in one of the pictures. Those spacers help in "flexing" the body, which affects the door fit.

Also, I noticed in the previous pic, that you had a jack and blocks supporting the Heater Channel as you worked on it. That also flexes the body, spreading that back jam "open". At a good angle too, cause the door looked awesome!

So maybe, while attaching the body to the pan, jack that same area at the rear door jam and see if it will line up again, then, Re-tac.

Good luck.

[VW_Jimbo]

Agree with my brother before me. Nice job!

Problem is simple. Stop working on multiple areas! Work one and only one panel, or portion of a panel at a time. Working multiple areas, simultaneously, can lead to problems.

For the door alignment. You got something tweaked for sure! How about taking a few steps back, away from the car and snapping a picture of the door misalignment? Include the entire side of the car in the shot. Need to see the roof line, the door gap and the rear quarter panel.

I am guessing the A and B pillars are not sitting in the same plane, so you will need to pull one down and spread the opening apart, but….I cannot see that from the pictures you posted.

I had the channel collapse on my 54 and have gone through a few years of grief getting the door alignment correct. It changes every now and again, at odd times. Something is still under stress and I am slowly relieving that stress with each body panel repair. In that build, I had the fabricate adjustable braces inside the cabin. I then Installed the door, followed by lots of adjusting. Once the door gaps looked good. I dropped it down on the pan and installed every bolt, along with the pan gaskets, and the front & rear pads. Check out my build in the Oval section. Jimmy V’s 54 Oval…

Post up some more pictures and check out the 54 build!
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[TDCTDI]

This happened because, while you triangulated your bracing horizontally, you did not triangulate the body vertically (or laterally). The body twisted at the A-pillar.

You will need to jack up the nose of the car to bring the rear edge of the door down.
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Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[gorbur]

All great points mentioned here. Too many repairs in play, cross bracing and body blocks in place to set up.
To me I would get the body and pan mated, back on the ground then supplement the bracing. My guess too is the A pillar sagging lower when you have it jacked up. If the pan's good you'll have your reference points.
Rely on the block adjustments later to do very minor tweaks only. Everything should be aligned and gapped prior.
Perhaps an option for you at this point would be to do both L & R HC's at the same time. Tack lightly the HC on at A & B pillar points. Mate it back up, adjust and do the final welds. The only thing that counts is when the body is back on the pan and sitting on all 4's.
If you do go that route, get the B pillar and aft repairs done while mated and before the HC's. A good portion of that can be done mated. Looks like your almost there just a few tweaks to get it dead on. Yours pic's are great and hope to see more as you progress.
Here's a reference for minimal diagonal bracing.

Don't forget to mock up what the body blocks and pan gasket will provide.
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73 - Ghia Cabriolet, currently under resto
76 - Type1, 1776, full restomod

[Jhp212]

First off thanks for the encouragement. I'm learning a lot. tdctdi: With the bracing that I have in place I have raised the chassis to the body and was able to open and close the door in previous attempts. I'm not seeing what caused this at this point other than the A and B pillar work I've done since which leads me to believe A or B can be the problem. However, nothing seems to be hanging anything up at A or B in fact looks like HC needs to be raised a little higher but something is preventing it.

I next took chassis down and mocked up HC with jacks and again door gaps look good and open and close perfect. measured a-b at 36 1/2" , top to bottom 41 3/8", & lower corner at A to top corner at B 54 7/8" converted from the metric dimensions

Jimbo: I thought I saw in your 54 build that you repaired A & B before the channel was installed? I could be mistaken I've been following 4-5 threads. I guess I didn't realize I was working on too many parts at a time. I should have gotten the HC in first. It just seemed too hard to work on those with the HC in place. Here are some more pictures of the door once I raised chassis to body and once again achieved misaligned door

Hard to get good shots since it's in a 1 car garage. It's weird that my measuments of the door opening didn't change after all of this. Problem does seem top to bottom.
mac jelly: I did have the rubber pads in although I had to use longer bolts to line them up

and I have the rubber pan gasket in place too. The good news is all bolts line up! (not counting old drivers HC)

Gorbur: I don't know but I'm a little nervous doing both HCs together. Most say do one side at a time but I will consider it.
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1971 Super Beetle

[VW_Jimbo]

Stick to one side at a time. 2 sides is after you master one side!

The A pillar is sitting to high, off the HC, or the B pillar is too low! Show me how you are measuring the opening. I use a piece of 3/4” angle iron, cut to length. No tape measure. No guessing where the end measurement is at on the tape. This is for the height adjacent to the B pillar and the widths at both hinges to the B pillar, at 90 degrees.

Remember you need all 3 dimensions to be golden, up & down, side to side, and diagonally.

Hope that helps!
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Jhp212]

I’m using a tape and not a metric tape so yes I’m sure I’m not as accurate as a solid rigid steel bar but they were consistent when door opens/closes correctly (no chassis) and misaligned (with chassis hooked up). Why does door work one way and then not the other? I understand measurements must be off as well as A and/or B must be messed up as chassis gets installed, correct? With chassis set up there’s a gap where it appears at A and B HC needs to go up a little on both sides.

I don’t have any pictures but when there is no chassis set up just HC in place using jacks those gaps are gone and A/B are sitting on HC where it needs to be, therefore the door opens/ closes fine. This is what I’m missing.
Ok I see I need accurate measurements. Using those same measurements but it is kind of hard to see where exactly measuring points are. Corner to corner are they measured fro here way inside this channel? Maybe a stupid question but how are you getting 3/4 angle iron in that channel?

To here at very corner?

And top of sill to inside top channel and lastly remove striker and measure straight across?

Thank you for bearing with all my questions!
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1971 Super Beetle

[gorbur]

Agreed that you should resolve this side first. The thought of both was minimizing the times you need to check the body against the pan. Usually, the repair/remediation is symmetrical.
Just another thought but maybe tack the door in place. Lower gently and check for points / gaps hanging you up.
Something looks a bit off on the door. Any shims behind the hinges? I'm no expert on interchangeability by years but maybe something there?
Below are some pic's of the after result of the HC channel replace. Perhaps they might give you some help.

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73 - Ghia Cabriolet, currently under resto
76 - Type1, 1776, full restomod

[Chinaclipper]

[Jhp212]

Hey Jimbo. In your 54 build I see how you braced the opening in an x pattern. I actually followed this photo and braced the horizontal bar of the opening to be adjusted the same way. I just didn’t do the x bracing because my door opened and closed fine. I still have to cut some measuring steel to check those door opening measurements. Question 1: in this photo you left theses 2 bars that run to other side circled while adjusting?

Question 2: how does all of this adjusting affect the opposite side door alignment? Or do you simply not concern yourself with the other side until your done with the side your working on.
I have my door working perfectly this way right now.

and may put a few tacks in and test it out again.
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1971 Super Beetle

[VW_Jimbo]

The Diagonal brace is very important. It keeps opposite sides in a square from moving independently. That is HUGE!

In the drawings I posted up, that dimension is 1394mm

1394 divided by 25.4 = 54.88189 inches or for shits and giggles 54.882 is close to 54 57/64 inches.

Cut a piece of angle iron 54 57/64” or 1394mm (I like mm better). Then cut each end to make it an angled point, but still retaining the 1394mm point to point.

Take that piece and secure it into the opening!

I will come back with pictures tomorrow, to help define what I am stating.
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Jhp212]

I made some measuring angle iron. Those EXACT measurements are important. I haven't seen anywhere or anyone showing how they get those exact measurements. Great tip VW Jimbo! Turns out my 1394mm diagonal measurement was about 5-7mm too large. No short cuts here. Then I went and made an adjustable brace for that diagonal dimension and pulled it in. Worked great. My measurements for the opening now look good (I believe).

The horrizontal measurement was slightly snug as it should be 1 mm less for passenger side (don't know why that is) and I will use this same one for the drivers side (ok, 1 shortcut).
Set the channel back in place and held it in with the jacks but not as firm this time. Jack by a pillar is a little more firm to help the door close better. This is where I feel lost. I've seen others use a jack on the pillar to do the same thing I'm doing but once the jack is gone what keeps the door from sagging? Is it just the channel keeping it in place? I do know that my door measurements are good and the door opens ok. This is what gaps look like as I called it quits for tonight

and how it's set up on the jacks

How should I proceed?
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1971 Super Beetle

[VW_Jimbo]

That is looking much better!!!!!

Now get a pan gasket. Tape it down onto the pan like it would be installed. Then set the body onto the pan with the heater channel in place. From there, start bolting the mount points in, with their spacers. Snug them up enough that the washer can be moved easily. Then install all of the heater channel bolts. Get them all in 2 to 3 turns. Adjust the channel to line up with the pillar bottoms. Then, once in alignment. Tighten everything up snug. Double check alignment of the panels. Then place several tack welds in. Once you feel that the panels are not movable, open and close the door. If it works well, move onto the other side. Get both of the channel tack welded into place, being sure that both A pillar and B pillars have tacks securing them. Be sure that the front of the channel is tacked to the front bulkhead wall and that the channels are tacked at the lower luggage shelf. Once all the tacks are set on both sides, recheck the doors. If adjustments are required, work as little an area as needed. Meaning, grind just a couple tacks open, knock, push or press what needs to be moved, then retack. Keep going through this process until harmony is felt when opening and closing the doors!

Then double check everything. Recheck all of the mounting bolts. The 2 at the front beam, the 4 at the bottom of the bulkhead, the 2 at the rear body mount and all of the pan bolts. Get all the rubber pads and gaskets, in place. Then torque all of the fasteners. Once completed, the door need to be rechecked. If good, start welding, checking out everything from time to time. If not almost perfect, grind a few tacks, push, pull, twist or whatever is needed to gain acceptable alignment, then tack. Recheck. Once perfect, weld away, checking everything often.
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Jhp212]

I have my channel tacked in.

I set it on its back wheels and on low jack stands in front (super beetle no front wheels in place) so this is the closest to how it will sit in reality.

Pan gasket and mount pads in place. All three door opening measurements are dead on and door opened/closed ok as I stated to tack. I tried pushing, pulling, tapping, etc to get channel just so but there isn't much room for movement. It looked where it should be so I began tacking. The door opens and closes but I feel it can be better. It seems to spring up (towards roofline) a little upon opening. Almost as if the door needs to be adjusted down but I don't think hinges can adjust that way.

I feel like this is the best I can get after spending a ton of time on it and this car isn't going to be a show car that's for sure. Tightening and loosening body bolts seem to affect closing either good or bad depending. Is there any other adjustment I can make? Or just be happy after first try that door functions and all other bolts line up thus far.
Also I discovered a crack around top hinge area.

I should stitch that up anyway but I don't know if this is contributing to anything.
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1971 Super Beetle

[VW_Jimbo]

You have to get all of the body bolts and support pads into place. Get the pan gasket installed, too. Get every bolt installed. THEN, adjust as needed. You will be surprised by how much the shell changes shape when you start bolting it down to the pan! On the 54, the rear tops of the doors rubbed a tiny bit, with no pan in place. After bolting it down, with the front beam installed, BAM! Everything was almost perfect! I had to circle back around and adjust some points (BFH hits strategically selected), mainly at the hinge attachment points.

You are close! Get the body bolted down, so you can see how the bolts pull and push the shape. Then, you can loosen and tighten in different sequences to gain different outcomes. When I did my first few sets of channels, I made custom sized rubber suspension pads to maximize or minimize the effect the body bolts have on the body. You just need to play with it, to learn it, so that you can make it react predictably!

Good luck! You got this!

Is that a dress crack of the steel or of the paint? I hope it is the latter! Front end accident?
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Jhp212]

I do have the pan gasket on and the 2 square pads in the rear mounts in place. As I had mentioned earlier I had to start by using a longer bolt in the rear mount area to get everything lined up easier if that matters. Also using that odd shaped washer/spacer.

I was afraid to change it to the proper size thinking it will move out of line. I suppose it should be ok to change now that weight of car is on it. I have that paralysis setting in trying to get this heater channel in. As far as the bolts, tightening and loosening seem to make a slight difference better or worse depending. I heard there is a sequence to tightening. Seems like the 14’ pounds seem too tight. A few turns out make it a little better. I’m sure my small torque wrench isn’t perfectly accurate. As far as BFH you’re just whacking away here? I did try to hit the channel some to get it to move with bolts loose but didn’t see much or any movement. It looks like it’s where it should be so started to tack. It’s in pretty solid now but I don’t want to weld in in until maybe I can iron this out. Plus I still have to get the rear cross member in place once this is set before I send it home. The driver’s side door closes better if that’s a positive!
That looks like a crack to me but maybe just paint as it obivously has a bad yellow spray job. I’m sure you can tell better but I don’t see signs of a major accident in front as the trunk looks untouched from strut towers back (original paint). Original chassis looks fine other than major rot which is why I swapped out the chassis to begin with. I'm sure some body work was done. If so at this point just stitch it up? You’ve been a big help and it’s greatly appreciated !
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1971 Super Beetle

[VW_Jimbo]

You need to change that pad out for the proper size one, before tacking. Once in, tack away and always, ALWAYS, check the door during the tacking!

I keep forgetting it is a Super. Sorry. There is a connection up front that needs to be tightened down before the tacking. You have to get the channel sitting on the pan gasket and righted to the torque spec, to the pan. ALL OF THE BOLTS! You must also get all of the body mounts tightened to torque, with the correct rubber shock pads. Then tack away some more. Grind off old tacks and adjust if needed, then retack. Keep going around in that circle until it is perfect. Then onto the other side. Do not weld anything into place.

Get the other door operating perfectly, with all of the metal needed tacked in place. Then go back and recheck the previous door. If, at this point with everything bolted down 100% AND working normally, weld away. If not, figure out what tack welds to grind off, push, pull or hit really hard to shift whatever needs shifting, into place. Then tack that up. Recheck. Repeat from the beginning.

Keep that vicious cycle up until you are happy. Do not cave into laziness! You will forever be upset with yourself. Get it sitting perfect. THEN and only then, start welding!

Looks way better!
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Jhp212]

Ok I should grind the tack welds i placed in and try to re set I think. Maybe I should adjust bracing to get the door fitting better. I’m thinking the bottom B pillar needs to move towards windshield corner with another diagonal brace. Maybe that will help the top of the B pillar where the door is a little tight. Was hoping I didn’t need that.
Just to be clear, once I finally get this thing situated where the door opens and closes perfect and bolts are all torqued, spacers set, etc. etc. THEN only tack in so it’s solid but I should not do any final welds until the other heater channel(in my case drivers side) is set in the same way? A lot of other information I’m getting on here show getting one side fully welded in right to the rear crossmember THEN move to the opposite heater channel. I think I like the idea of not fully welding these panels in until both sides are set.
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1971 Super Beetle

[VW_Jimbo]

I would not weld it all together until everything is in and working. If you are 100% sure that that side is perfect, weld it in. But, if you are unsure just leave it for a little while. The tack welds are not going to allow the panels to move. They are in the realm of 50000psi, so you would need some serious push to loose alignment.

What may happen, and what is more real, is that once you get the other heater channel in, the body may roll back to an equilibrium status. That steel has a memory! And if you can get it back, close, to the way it all sat before, shit will snap back into shape. If you do not get it close, you will be fighting with it for a long while. So, this is why you do not want to go permanently setting plug welds. You may still need to readjust the starter side after you get the other side set.

Once both side are tacked in well, then you should start welding in permanently!

That has been my experience through the years. And thus formed my opinion on how to weld these cars back together. Sometimes I do stray from typical, just because it all seems good. Even though, I believe it has bitten me more than helped out! Now, I do a lot of tack welding, thinking and pondering, BEFORE welding stuff together for good! Took 41 years for me to finally understand what my fathers before me were talking about, but now, I finally get it!
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!