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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:36 am Post subject: Clutch disc modification? |
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I’m sure this some ppl wound up..
Anyone ever tried modifying a stock type clutch disc to make it like a puck style? Like cutting out sections between where the disc material is riveted.
I wonder if it would hold or fly apart ? Would it grab harder like a puck style, but maybe be a little more forgiving?
If it ever was done id bet it was back in the 70’s when there weren’t many options and ppl weren’t afraid to try new shit.
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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67rustavenger 
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9772
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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| BFB wrote: |
I’m sure this some ppl wound up..
Anyone ever tried modifying a stock type clutch disc to make it like a puck style? Like cutting out sections between where the disc material is riveted.
I wonder if it would hold or fly apart ? Would it grab harder like a puck style, but maybe be a little more forgiving?
If it ever was done id bet it was back in the 70’s when there weren’t many options and ppl weren’t afraid to try new shit. |
You go first!
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| BFB wrote: |
I’m sure this some ppl wound up..
Anyone ever tried modifying a stock type clutch disc to make it like a puck style? Like cutting out sections between where the disc material is riveted.
I wonder if it would hold or fly apart ? Would it grab harder like a puck style, but maybe be a little more forgiving?
If it ever was done id bet it was back in the 70’s when there weren’t many options and ppl weren’t afraid to try new shit. |
You go first!
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Why?
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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Centerforce has been making those for 40 years now. Gene Berg also sells them. The Ace Copperhead is also the same type product. They work great. I run them on all my VW's.
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1301.htm
If you talk with any transaxle rebuilder, they will tell you if you use too heavy or too light of a clutch disc then you will put additional wear and stress on the transaxle synchro's and effect shifting. For a racer this can be critical. Using too aggressive of a disc will end up breaking spider gears, R&P's, axles, and other transaxle parts. If you choose to modify the clutch disc it needs to match a stock disc weight to get the smoothest shifting and best transaxle life.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Last edited by vwracerdave on Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:12 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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So i'm confused, is the OP talking about making a 4 puck?
Or this style?
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 5969
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
If you talk with any transaxle rebuilder, they will tell you if you lighten up a clutch disc then you will put additional wear and stress on the transaxle synchro's and effect shifting. For a racer this can be critical. Using too aggressive of a disc will end up breaking spider gears, R&P's, axles, and other transaxle parts. If you choose to modify the clutch disc it needs to match a stock disc weight to get the smoothest shifting and best transaxle life. |
Dave, I agree the OP is just rocking the boat for no reason...
but your statement that a light disc puts wear and stress on the synchronizers is incorrect. If you have a heavy clutch disc (black magic for example) the added weight is essentially more kinetic energy that the syncrionizers have to slow down every time you shift. Simply put, a heavier disc is more heat and friction at the synchronizer and gear hub. A light disc is easier on those parts.
You are correct that a puck disc kills gears and axles. Puck clutches don't like to slip and VW transmissions don't like shock loads.
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9772
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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Sounds like Richard, is asking if anyone has modified a stock clutch disc.
Like 4 puck, removing material between the rivets.
That's why I posted, "You go first."
I'm not one to try anything like that. I don't want to scatter a clutch disc at the top end of a 6K+ rpm drag race.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Pruneman99
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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| I'm sure the imbalance would be insane. Horrible idea for no upside. |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
Sounds like Richard, is asking if anyone has modified a stock clutch disc.
Like 4 puck, removing material between the rivets.
That's why I posted, "You go first."
I'm not one to try anything like that. I don't want to scatter a clutch disc at the top end of a 6K+ rpm drag race. |
Yes that’s exactly what I’m asking, but it could even be like a six puck, 8, whatever. And I’m not scared to try, ill do on my next R&D buggy build.
Also , esde , i dont see anywhere where Dave said i was trying to rock the boat.. this time. Haha! Which does seem out of the ordinary….
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9481
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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If someone wants to try peeing on a battery, do NOT try to discourage. 
Just wait for the results - |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
Centerforce has been making those for 40 years now. Gene Berg also sells them. The Ace Copperhead is also the same type product. They work great. I run them on all my VW's.
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1301.htm
If you talk with any transaxle rebuilder, they will tell you if you use too heavy or too light of a clutch disc then you will put additional wear and stress on the transaxle synchro's and effect shifting. For a racer this can be critical. Using too aggressive of a disc will end up breaking spider gears, R&P's, axles, and other transaxle parts. If you choose to modify the clutch disc it needs to match a stock disc weight to get the smoothest shifting and best transaxle life. |
Thats interesting!
So from what I am seeing you have a complete ring of friction material on the PP side and a segmented series of pucks on the flywheel side.
So with less surface area to grip with on the flywheel side you get some "limited slip" during the engagement process so its not just instantly locking up solid and slamming the transmission?
Ray |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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how ya gonna balance it?  just buy the right disc that you need. Im not fond of heavy disc, there hard on trans parts.(zyncros) |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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I think the limited slip is provided more by the marcel spring than the reduced friction surface area on the flywheel side. I don't really understand the choice of 2 different friction materials or different surface areas, but I'm guessing the increased hold is provided by the pucks on the flywheel side.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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rrcade
Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010
Posts: 735
Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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Unless you’re looking at something like a rev 6
Clutch discs are cheap don’t try to reinvent the wheel
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CHEAP - FAST - RELIABLE
You can only pick two of the above. |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:15 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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I've been running this disc for around 6 years in my Turbo Bug,  cheers,Mike
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12743
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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| BFB wrote: |
| Also , esde , i dont see anywhere where Dave said i was trying to rock the boat.. this time. Haha! Which does seem out of the ordinary…. |
No, you said it yourself!
| BFB wrote: |
| I’m sure this some ppl wound up.. |
Interesting idea... but personally it would do nothing for me with the kind of driving I do except increase maintenance costs and down time. Have a go and tell us how it works out.
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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Removing friction material will increase wear and heat in the friction material. You are asking the remaining material to deal with a lot more than it was designed for. The puck clutches have friction material made to deal with those conditions, so they wear longer and don’t glaze up from excessive heat. Stock style friction material… not so much.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4858
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
Centerforce has been making those for 40 years now. Gene Berg also sells them. The Ace Copperhead is also the same type product. They work great. I run them on all my VW's.
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1301.htm
If you talk with any transaxle rebuilder, they will tell you if you use too heavy or too light of a clutch disc then you will put additional wear and stress on the transaxle synchro's and effect shifting. For a racer this can be critical. Using too aggressive of a disc will end up breaking spider gears, R&P's, axles, and other transaxle parts. If you choose to modify the clutch disc it needs to match a stock disc weight to get the smoothest shifting and best transaxle life. |
As a transaxle builder I will tell you to run the lightest possible disc. There is absolutly no downside to a lighter disk, only upsides. The synchro's sole responsability is to controll the clutch disk,, speed it up and slow it down. Remember mass in motion stays in motion.
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There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
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67 T-1
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earthquake
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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Remember, Don Garlits lost 1/2 his foot when a clutch/flywheel blew up in one of his front engine dragsters, I know the engine is behind you in a VW but that does not mean some body standing near by could not get hurt.
eQ
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc modification? |
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That's why their is 'Scatter Shields"
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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