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Ossipon
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:57 am    Post subject: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

Getting ready for my next stage of work on Gretchen
Thus far, I have used rivet/screw and then weld for my efforts with Gretchen. Has anyone used autobody adhesive with success? And if so, what are some hints or suggestions?
My plan right now is:
1. Remove the bad spot target area and adjacent surface rust.
2. Initial fit of the replacement metal
3. If needed install a pre-brace of metal, Anchor with a spot weld on the pre-brace
4. POR except the adhesive area.
5. Final Fit
6. Apply adhesive and clamp multiple places
7. Bondo work
8. POR
9 Primer
Thanks in advance
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

It's not clear from your post WHAT the adhesive is being used for.

Is it for adhering riveted in patch panels over rust holes?

Ok, first thing, if POR is going to be used....I assume as an encapsulant that keeps the weather off of everything and hopefully makes it look good.....don't skip any areas.

POR and other similar products are designed to seal and to get rid of moisture and oxygen. Not having the POR where the adhesive is....means the adhesive will have oxygen and moisture in it.

If you are comfortable welding a work brace....just weld the part in. It does not need to be a complete panel warping, perimeter or bead weld. Just use your brace to hold it tight....tack it in a spot....let it completely cool....tack it in another spot....completely cool....repeat.

Then I would use a dab of phosphoric acid applied to the weld points to kill the flash rust. Then paint the whole area with Master series silver.....which WILL kill and encapsulate all of the rustable areas....then POR. Bulletproof.

I would not rely on adhesive as the joint to hold in the new patch part. Not because its not a strong enough bond.....but because it relies on having clean, non rust proofed surfaces and many adhesives contain chemicals that break down over time and cause rust when they reach moisture. Ray
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Ossipon
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
It's not clear from your post WHAT the adhesive is being used for.
Is it for adhering riveted in patch panels over rust holes? ...

Ray

Thanks Ray, You gave clarity to one of my thoughts. My assumption is auto body adhesives are a cyanoacrylate based epoxy. That said, my prior experience (about 10-15 years ago) with a cyanoacrylate solution had a torsion weakness as well as a lifespan reduction of the bond due to heat. (My prior use was in a water cooled engine compartment near exhaust manifold.)
I have a rear notch fenders with similar issues seen below on both sides
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I have the patch section for the front area, and wanted to strengthen the shown area in the back.
I also know I have to do inner fender rebuild due to rust out. I am not the best welder and thought there may have been improvements since I last used a metal adhesive solution.
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Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

If you search for auto body adhesives you can download the 3M brochure. Under adhesives they have urethane based, epoxy based and cyanoacrylate based.

The toughest and most flexible and chemical proof will be the urethane. It also entrains a lot of oxygen.

The epoxy will have the highest cross section strength because they usually have fillers.

The cyanoacrylate is the least impact and heat resistant because it's rigid....but has very aggressive bond strength....but should be used very thin for small areas....kind of like tacking parts together.

All are recommended to be used with wome wort of mechanical bond like rivets, screws or welds......so you are on the right track. You could tack weld or use serious steel rivets.

But if the part is not structural...meaning not a lot of torsional load...just shape the part as good as possible for the least gap...tack weld it if you can so it's "fixed"...vrind welda and hammer and dolly to reduce gaps.....then use master series and force it through all gaps. It is anaerobic. It EATS moisture and oxygen as it cures.

If you are putting bond over it....the biggest key is killing potential rust growth. Ray
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

Ossipon wrote:
Getting ready for my next stage of work on Gretchen
Thus far, I have used rivet/screw and then weld for my efforts with Gretchen. Has anyone used autobody adhesive with success? And if so, what are some hints or suggestions?
My plan right now is:
1. Remove the bad spot target area and adjacent surface rust.
2. Initial fit of the replacement metal
3. If needed install a pre-brace of metal, Anchor with a spot weld on the pre-brace
4. POR except the adhesive area.
5. Final Fit
6. Apply adhesive and clamp multiple places
7. Bondo work
8. POR
9 Primer
Thanks in advance


You might want to contact a type 3 Samba user " the Grafts " as he's a college auto body instructor, and is using some 3M panel bond on his own car (a Fastback) and has shown pictures of him using it. He could help you decide which products to use, and how to anchor the "new" metal to the old for the best bond. I'm not saying Ray is wrong, but rather I'm suggesting talking with someone who has used it before and is familiar with the products being used, and can offer help if you run into something you're not familiar with. A little more information is not a bad thing.
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64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Ossipon wrote:
Getting ready for my next stage of work on Gretchen
Thus far, I have used rivet/screw and then weld for my efforts with Gretchen. Has anyone used autobody adhesive with success? And if so, what are some hints or suggestions?
My plan right now is:
1. Remove the bad spot target area and adjacent surface rust.
2. Initial fit of the replacement metal
3. If needed install a pre-brace of metal, Anchor with a spot weld on the pre-brace
4. POR except the adhesive area.
5. Final Fit
6. Apply adhesive and clamp multiple places
7. Bondo work
8. POR
9 Primer
Thanks in advance


You might want to contact a type 3 Samba user " the Grafts " as he's a college auto body instructor, and is using some 3M panel bond on his own car (a Fastback) and has shown pictures of him using it. He could help you decide which products to use, and how to anchor the "new" metal to the old for the best bond. I'm not saying Ray is wrong, but rather I'm suggesting talking with someone who has used it before and is familiar with the products being used, and can offer help if you run into something you're not familiar with. A little more information is not a bad thing.


Yep...agree.

The thing about "panel bonding" adhesives....is that they are made for large area to area overlapped panels. You see a lot of this in modern cars under fenders. A lot of the inner non safety structural tub areas use this. But the parts need to fit onto each other surface fairly closely to get as uniform of a cross section as possible....and you need as large of a lapped joint as you can get. Surface area is everything.

But...in most cases what has been done to the panel for rustproofing has already been done. Either paint or sealer coating or an chemical treatment coating phosphoric acid.

In a small narrow line joint...yes...the adhesive might rip off a paint coating....but in a large area lap joint....the surface area works in your favor.

I am not against autobody panel bonding adhesives....but they are not really expressly made to stop rust. Ray
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Braukuche
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

Panel adhesive is for, well, entire panels not for spot rust repair. From everything I’ve read used for the correct purpose and installed as required it’s stronger that spot welded panels.
The best repair for a spot rust repair is to cut out all the rust, cut a metal patch to fit leaving a thin gap and then butt weld it in.
Second best option is to cut an over side patch and lap weld it from behind filling the depression with short strand kitty hair and then topping that with glaze.
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Ossipon
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

Thanks all for the insight. As said, I tried cyanoacrylate based adhesive about 10-15 years ago and felt it was not a mature solution for older cars. And that welding was likely best option.
What I had been doing for my notch body welding thus far is what was suggested as second best. i.e. overlap lap welds with me creating an indent lip in the patch edge to align with the target area. Then Use screws or rivets to hold in place then do the best welding I can in a mix of plug and patch edge welds.

What I am hearing in the topic tone right now is that adhesive "might" work on my notch back fender. If I am applying a clean patch section to a clean target patch prepped area between the Wheel well and the door frame. But, it is not as good as a similar weld solution. And definitely not an answer for small rust patch area relief. Or a general rust solution.
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VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

Ossipon wrote:
Thanks all for the insight.

What I am hearing in the topic tone right now is that adhesive "might" work on my notch back fender. If I am applying a clean patch section to a clean target patch prepped area between the Wheel well and the door frame. But, it is not as good as a similar weld solution. And definitely not an answer for small rust patch area relief. Or a general rust solution.


If it's that curved piece between the rear tire and the door, that's a common rust area, and you're better off welding it from behind (pull the fender off and weld the piece on). I say do it from behind, as you won't see it again unless you have the fender off. It's also how I fixed my own car (both sides), and I used 71 Square parts there, as that part of the fender never changed thru the years of production, and by welding it in from behind it will give you less clean up (grinding) of the outside. You can butt weld it too with a copper bar on the outside. I hope this helps.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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Ossipon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

[quote="Bobnotch"]
Ossipon wrote:
Thanks all for the insight.
...

If it's that curved piece between the rear tire and the door, that's a common rust area, and you're better off welding it from behind (pull the fender off and weld the piece on). I say do it from behind, as you won't see it again unless you have the fender off. It's also how I fixed my own car (both sides), and I used 71 Square parts there, as that part of the fender never changed thru the years of production, and by welding it in from behind it will give you less clean up (grinding) of the outside. You can butt weld it too with a copper bar on the outside. I hope this helps.


The idea of the copper bar makes perfect sense. I have two of these patch sections from ISP for each side.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2040877
I am just getting my ducks in a row so to speak before I start next month. I was planning to remove both rear fenders, do that body work, and then also attack the area where the bumpers mount and another rust point higher on the back inner fenders. Once I have that area done, the major rust repairs will be done.
At a car show last week, I had someone suggest I try adhesive instead of welding for that patch install. This is what started me thinking and posting this thread.
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VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
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TheGrafs
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

Lots of good feedback in this post. For a spot that small, if you have a welder, welding it up would be the most cost effective way. 3M 8115 Panel Bond non structural adhesive is used on a majority of a panel, such as quarter or roof panel, that is then also welded for its structural integrity. A tube is $50-60 and the application gun is about the same so its over a $100 investment to use.

Additionally it would need to be repaired using an overlapping flanged method which would make that area “stronger”, but double layered and harder to metal work. Clamps are used to keep it tight, but some repairs do require rivets or welding. I “rivet bonded” my floor pan, made a youtube video and got some negative feedback. My confidence and trust in the product and method was good enough for me, Im not planning to sell the car and not worried what the “old school body guys” think. Also did a door skin with the same product and used a pro spot to help secure the flanged surface too.

Long story short, its great technology, but expensive and not in all honesty much better than welding.


Edit with addition information, the panel bond requires bare metal on both surfaces to adhere, but offers corrosion protection. If you weld it on, waterproof filler on both front and back is also great corrosion protection. No need for a POR 15 or anything in between. Epoxy primer is my go to over any of those “rust proof primers”.

Hope this helps!
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Ossipon
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

TheGrafs wrote:
Lots of good feedback in this post. For a spot that small, if you have a welder, welding it up would be the most cost effective way. 3M 8115 Panel Bond non structural adhesive is used on a majority of a panel, such as quarter or roof panel, that is then also welded for its structural integrity. A tube is $50-60 and the application gun is about the same so its over a $100 investment to use.

Additionally it would need to be repaired using an overlapping flanged method which would make that area “stronger”, but double layered and harder to metal work. Clamps are used to keep it tight, but some repairs do require rivets or welding. I “rivet bonded” my floor pan, made a youtube video and got some negative feedback. My confidence and trust in the product and method was good enough for me, Im not planning to sell the car and not worried what the “old school body guys” think. Also did a door skin with the same product and used a pro spot to help secure the flanged surface too.

Long story short, its great technology, but expensive and not in all honesty much better than welding.


Edit with addition information, the panel bond requires bare metal on both surfaces to adhere, but offers corrosion protection. If you weld it on, waterproof filler on both front and back is also great corrosion protection. No need for a POR 15 or anything in between. Epoxy primer is my go to over any of those “rust proof primers”.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for this. I had totally forgotten my applicator experience from years ago. I had to rent one as I did not have the dual tube appliance.
While not concerned as much by the cost per tubes as was appropriateness for the fix. I have the long clamps which were going to assist in the compression needed.
As stated prior, I was considering adhesive was if any of you had seen my welding, you would say "Yup, amateur" The welding work done thus far on Gretchen has improved, but thought this might be a viable alternative.
I watched your YouTube video as well as a few others. My conclusion from my prior experience is I think it could be fine for non-impact and non-flex non-load bearing areas such as inner fenders and maybe even for this but....
I still have not decided, but right now can see welding would be easier in many ways over adhesive.
Thanks to all
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VWs in my life:
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Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
GTI 83, Jetta 81, 85, 87, 91 TDI, 98 TDI, 09 / New Beetle 99 / SportWagen 05, 13 / Tiguan 18 / T3 92
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Autobody adhesive question Reply with quote

butt welds not lap welds or panel bond for what you need to do
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