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Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:59 pm    Post subject: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

I am having trouble with fuel boiling and flooding the 34 PICT 3 carb in my '74 super beetle. I want to try a phenolic spacer but cannot find one made for this application. Does anyone have a source? Any other ideas to improve the flooding and hard starts after engine gets hot and fuel boils?
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Are you taking about a spacer that fits between the intake flange and the base of the carb? Are you certain this is where the carb is being heated from? I would challenge you to take you car for a drive until the engine is warmed up, get in the highway where you can maintain a sustained engine rpm. After 5 or 10min pull over and place your hand on the neck of the intake. I'm betting it will feel cool/ cold. There may even be some ice? This is because the fast flowing air-fuel mixture will draw heat out of the intake manifold, lowering the temp of this part of the intake. The only thing fighting against this chilling is the heat riser tubes routing exhaust gasses up from the exhaust manifolds to the underside of the horizontal intake section. This part of the intake may be warm. So you see it is not the intake heating the carb. Placing a spacer below the carb won't do much. In fact it could make the carb hotter!
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busman78
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:23 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Phenolic spacer cannot make the carb hotter, only cooler, and with a stock intake cooler is not what you need.

Check the carb base after a road cruise and you get home, allow time for the heat to soak, maybe ten to fifteen minutes, then touch the base of the carb and also feel the fuel bowl, they should be a little warn, but not roasting hot. Also check how hot the fuel pump is, are any of your fuel lines laying on the engine metal for it too gets hot. If the pump or lines are cooking the vapor pushed into the carb will push the fuel out the bowl and down the intake.

If you are soaking enough heat up a stock intake to boil fuel in the fuel bowl your engine in getting way to hot.

If heat isoak is not the problem you may have pressure building in the fuel tank, outside temps will build pressure in the tank and that pressure does not get out via the vaopr lines then it will push fuel to carb. Just anotehr item to investigate.
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:21 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Thanks. I will take that drive and feel the carb base. My initial exploration of a phenolic spacer came after speaking to Tim at Volksbitz, who rebuilt my carb. He did say all of the things that you both have said about fuel lines and heat (especially in an old, high mileage engine like mine). He thought that perhaps the spacer might help.

I am willing to try it if I do find a hot carb base. I can simply take it out if it does not seem to be helpful. Do you know where I could get one for my carb and model year bug?

Also, any idea on how to relieve pressure in the fuel system, in case that is the culprit? I can say that this problem was happening even with the stock, oem fuel pump, when I first got the car. After that died, I put a new one in but the problem is not any worse, so I don't think it is the fuel pump providing too much pressure.

I am leaning toward old, hot engine (will test) or pressure buildup.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:36 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

There are vapor lines on the tank, well there is supposed to be, they need to be operational or if the factory system has been removed there has to be a vent hose from the tank to atmosphere. I am not familiar with the later super beetle vapor system, someone else will have to answer that one.

Phenolic spacer can be had at aircooled.net


https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Weber-34-ICT-and-Sol...ic-6mm.htm
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

My SB does have the original vapor line system intact, including the cannister under the fender. Maybe a SB owner can comment on whether you know of that system becoming inoperative, even though intact, allowing pressure to build up? If so, where's the best place to relieve that?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

I would try extending the bowl vent higher. This was mentioned in another thread as being necessary for off-road use with the stock carb.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

??? https://www.jbugs.com/product/16-9705.html ???
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Thanks, but I am not doing off-road. It is a stock Super Beetle that runs mostly on local paves roads and some highway driving. Very tame. Would your comment still apply?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Make sure that you are not overheating the engine. Make sure that all of your tins & seals are in place.


What I have experienced when this “boiling fuel” issue is that an aftermarket fuel pump is supplying too much pressure for the float/needle seat & the fuel bleeds off into the carb.


Next time that you drive it, like you normally would for it to do this, park it, & pinch off the fuel line near the carb inlet with a pair of vice grips & see if the fuel is actually boiling out of the carb, or if the fuel is being forced past the needle valve.
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Great idea. I actually have an in-line fuel valve in place to make it easier when I change the filter. I can certainly use that for the test. All of my tins and seals are in place, so I can rule those issues out. As noted in an earlier comment, the car did this even with the OEM fuel pump in place (which failed and has been replaced). So, it would seem to me that it is not the fuel pump. Your test will help rule that out.
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

I will be reporting back on both the apparent temperature at the base of the carb after running the engine through a full heat-up and on whether shutting off the fuel supply when I park the car makes it easier to start (after turning back on, of course) in say ten minutes (the usual time it takes to get to a hard restart condition). Stay tuned...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

sun-bug74 wrote:
Thanks, but I am not doing off-road. It is a stock Super Beetle that runs mostly on local paves roads and some highway driving. Very tame. Would your comment still apply?


If nothing else works I would try the vent extension. The problem you are having seems to be happening more often. Possibly due to modern fuel lower boiling point. It would be interesting to try some E-0 gas.
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

I will add that to the list. Others have said that it is becoming more common for that reason.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

So, the verdict is in. Ashman was right that the base of the carb and top of the intake were cool to cold and the engine was fully heated. Fuel pump was lukewarm and not hot. I then shut off the flow from the gas tank with the valve and waited about 12 minutes. I turned the gas back on and tried to start. I got the typical hard start.

So, a) the carb did not heat up, and, b) it appears that there is not pressure from the tank causing the problem.

By the way, after the 12 minutes, I felt the carb base, intake, and fuel pump again and they were just warm to the touch. Nothing high temp.

Does this mean that the theory about extending the carb vent out up into the fuel filter might work? I will try it an let you all know.

Any ideas now that I have gone through two tests?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Do the same test but do NOT turn the fuel on when you go to restart. Also, when you shut the car off pull off the air filter and watch the bowl vent to see if it is dribbling fuel into the carb throat.
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Thanks. Will do those things and will report back tomorrow.
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Tim Donahoe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Can I assume that you're following your owner manual's recommendation, and starting a hot engine by slowly pressing the gas pedal all the way to the floor, holding it there, then turning the key?

Tim
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sun-bug74
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Yes, indeed. Hot engine starts right back up without even touching gas if restart is within five minutes or so. After that, it’s pedal to the floor with plenty of starter winding until it starts. Cold engine, one push and release and it starts immediately.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Phenolic Spacer for 34 PICT 3, Super Beetle Reply with quote

Was able to do the hot engine test for a second time, as recommended, and tried to start after about 12 minutes but leaving the fuel line off. Same result, foot to floor cranking until it started. Will do the remove air filter and look for dribbling test tomorrow.
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